Refugee crisis. Something on the scale of the Marshall plan required?

[teqniq]

I've posted this as there doesn't seem to be anything recent that deals solely with this issue. I know there's the Calais thread but that's more of a resource for individuals who wish to help. The scale of the issue is vast imo; in the Middle East the primary driver is the war in Syria as evidenced by this article but there are many refugees from other countries too. It really requires a concerted response from governments as they are the entities with the resources to provide aid and assistance The people of Germany at least are setting a good example and the government there is too. But here instead in the UK we are presented with the likes of Theresa May using dog-whistle psychology to appeal to the little Englanders and unfortunately it seems to appeal to a lot of people. The number of xenophobic comments in that article are frankly depressing. It makes me ashamed to be English tbh.

So what is to be done, or is anything to be done at all?

 

[weltweit]

I think the EU is finally waking up to the issue, the hundreds drowning in the med, Greece and Italy being swamped with arriving migrants, the 71 dead in a lorry in Austria, the new fences going up, Calais etc etc .. It can no longer be the elephant in the EU room.

 

[terapija]

I think the EU is finally waking up to the issue, the hundreds drowning in the med, Greece and Italy being swamped with arriving migrants, the 71 dead in a lorry in Austria, the new fences going up, Calais etc etc .. It can no longer be the elephant in the EU room.

thats why they call them migrants

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=51748#.VeLrcPmqpBc

 

[teqniq]

Well hello. The article calls them 'refugees and migrants'. What is your point caller?

 

[terapija]

talking about mainstream media and politicians. people from lybia, syria, iraq, afganistan being portrayed as economic migrants because it helps their hypocritical, racist, xenophobic agenda

 

[teqniq]

Ah ok I see.

 

[teqniq]

Graun still insisting on calling them migrants when it is patently obvious that many of them are refugees

Migration crisis: Germany, France and Britain demand urgent EU meeting

but at least something looks likely happen lets hope it's something positive.

 

[terapija]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/10/10-truths-about-europes-refugee-crisis

they published this article, at least thats something in the current situation

 

[kebabking]

if people want to advance the argument/discussion from its current nadir, they probably ought to start by avoiding the lefts traditional obsession and eternal bunfights with what words are used - the people in Calais, in Italy, in Greece, moving over the Saharah and the Med, are Migrants because are migrating. they can also be refugees, and whatever other words you personally might prefer for political reasons, but getting tied up - as this otherwise worthwhile thread has already done by post #3 - by the language, rather than the possible solutions, helps absolutely nobody, and certainly not some poor fucker suffocating in lorry...

there are probably between 500m and a billion people living in what might usefully termed 'shitholes' who are within migrating distance of Europe. we either build a very high fence, accept that the population of Europe might double, or come up with some way of reducing the push factors which persuade such unfortunates that the risks of attempting to get into the EU via traffiking routes is a good alternative to staying where they are...

the choice is pretty obvious, and the costs - for the largest, richest political and trade bloc in the world - would not be insurmountable...

 

[Idris2002]

A Marshall plan implemented by who exactly? The whole lesson of this crisis is that no general European will has emerged from the processes that were supposed to secure a common European border across the med. Instead, every single Euro govt., core and periphery alike has preferred to kick the can down the road, and to shirk its own responsibilities.

The Irish media is making a big story about the LE Eithne rescuing people in the Med (and they are doing a good job of it too). Thing is, Enda the K and his gubmint fought tooth and nail against doing anything at all in the Med, for a long, long time:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0705/712799-migrants/

 

[terapija]

A Marshall plan implemented by who exactly? The whole lesson of this crisis is that no general European will has emerged from the processes that were supposed to secure a common European border across the med. Instead, every single Euro govt., core and periphery alike has preferred to kick the can down the road, and to shirk its own responsibilities.

The Irish media is making a big story about the LE Eithne rescuing people in the Med (and they are doing a good job of it too). Thing is, Enda the K and his gubmint fought tooth and nail against doing anything at all in the Med, for a long, long time:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0705/712799-migrants/

all EU member states together. with financial help from US who kick-started this mess in the first place

 

[Idris2002]

all EU member states together. with financial help from US who kick-started this mess in the first place

1. The whole point of the EU was that its member states "pooled sovereignty" in the cause of "ever closer union". This crisis shows what that really meant, and how much it was worth.

2. Financial help from the superpower that kick-started the mess? You'll be lucky.

 

[hot air baboon]

we either build a very high fence, accept that the population of Europe might double, or come up with some way of reducing the push factors

...going the fence route it just has to be very wide rather than high...something like the Korean DMZ to give a border protection force time to rush to any breaches......agree with the OP...you are talking about large scale "liberal-imperialist" geo-political engineering on the historical scale of creating Liberia as a home for freed slaves....basically a trans-national administered and protected regional "safe-country" that refugees can go to until this lunacy ..esp in Syria / Iraq burns itself out...its going to take a generation.....Libya looks as good a place as any....and yes send the bill to the 2 joined at the hip plutocracies that have done more than most to create this cluster-fuck...US & Saudi...

 

[likesfish]

Could be done in Libya small population could be stabilised build camps get the population of the camps working in resorts build a few casinos Dubai 2* "do you think yourca hero'

Sill a better plan than the current one.

 

[Idris2002]

Could be done in Libya small population could be stabilised build camps get the population of the camps working in resorts build a few casinos Dubai 2* "do you think yourca hero'

Sill a better plan than the current one.

Libya? Which was still in rag order the last time I looked?

And so, with a grim inevitability, the tradition continues:

Spoiler

 

[weltweit]

thats why they call them migrants

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=51748#.VeLrcPmqpBc

Interesting article. But the OP marshall plan idea seems to suggest we or Europe can do something about it, which suggests interventions, and the UKs interventions to date in the regions involved have only increased the flow of migrants and refugees. The question remains, what intervention in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Eritrea could stabilise those countries and stem the flow of people?

 

[BandWagon]

The real solution is to fix the 'shitholes' so people don't want to leave. That means ending the war in Syria, stabilising Libya and Iraq, and bringing some kind of peace and prosperity to East Africa. That could be done if Europe and America had the political will, and weren't obstructed by Russia and China.

Small chance then.

 

[weltweit]

The real solution is to fix the 'shitholes' so people don't want to leave. That means ending the war in Syria, stabilising Libya and Iraq, and bringing some kind of peace and prosperity to East Africa. That could be done if Europe and America had the political will, and weren't obstructed by Russia and China.

Small chance then.

But those proposals mean "boots on the ground" which in some of those territories is what created the issues in the first place. I am not convinced European nations are prepared to see body-bags coming home if for example they go up against ISIS.

 

[BandWagon]

But those proposals mean "boots on the ground" which in some of those territories is what created the issues in the first place. I am not convinced European nations are prepared to see body-bags coming home if for example they go up against ISIS.

I'm sure you're right on both counts.

 

[likesfish]

Libya? Which was still in rag order the last time I looked?

And so, with a grim inevitability, the tradition continues:

Spoiler

If you wanted to do it it its eminiantly doable.
The militas are good at slaughtering each other and the unarmed they'd just be target practice for an armoured division and air power

Your not trying to make libya work just carve out safe areas to dump refugees and build citys and snaffle the oil no green zone or pesky city to bother about just a nice wide open killing zone.

Few air strikes some minefields and you've got yourself a proper dystopia going might as well instigate hunger game death matches on sky sports who wants to be a citizen?

 

[kebabking]

all EU member states together. with financial help from US who kick-started this mess in the first place

The US has no interest whatsoever in dipping its hands in its pockets as the migrant boats from north Africa are somewhat unlikely to get to the US's eastern seaboard...

It's Europe's problem because that's where these people - quite sensibly - are going. The US Has about as much interest in this issue as Japan: none.

 

[Idris2002]

If you wanted to do it it its eminiantly doable.
The militas are good at slaughtering each other and the unarmed they'd just be target practice for an armoured division and air power

Your not trying to make libya work just carve out safe areas to dump refugees and build citys and snaffle the oil no green zone or pesky city to bother about just a nice wide open killing zone.

Few air strikes some minefields and you've got yourself a proper dystopia going might as well instigate hunger game death matches on sky sports who wants to be a citizen?

Dystopia, eh? You could call it "Guffon City".

But that's kind of what they're risking their lives to get away from.

Anyway, from what I've been seeing over the past couple of years, we will soon some attempt to portray the Eritrean regime as "not so bad after all", to put some lipstick on the pig of refoulement.

 

[weltweit]

.. It's Europe's problem because that's where these people - quite sensibly - are going. The US Has about as much interest in this issue as Japan: none.

I agree, it is Europe's problem. edit, no wait, Afghanistan Iraq and Libya are also US.

 

[DotCommunist]

if people want to advance the argument/discussion from its current nadir, they probably ought to start by avoiding the lefts traditional obsession and eternal bunfights with what words are used

'the lefts obsession' and of note to anyone with an interest in how language is used to control discourse and effect an othering- hence how corrosive 'illegals' is and dehumanising it is to refer to a lost 13 year old as an illegal immigrant. Rattle your telegraph all you like but language is important and bluff no-nonsense harumphing about plain talking straight up language is going to change that. The people using it in a very deliberate way know exactly what they are doing and to pretend they aren't and that its 'an obsession of the left' is foolish.

however, I'd agree that discussing terms all day long isn't a practical solution. How fortunate then that while our government talks of higher fences and more bobbies the good people of the country are organising practical aid in the form of food, clothing and tents.

 

[kebabking]

....however, I'd agree that discussing terms all day long isn't a practical solution. How fortunate then that while our government talks of higher fences and more bobbies the good people of the country are organising practical aid in the form of food, clothing and tents.

aid for 3,000 in Calais certainly, enough aid and engagement - for a generation or more - to turn North Africa down to the equator for 500m into a decent place to live?

and while you are correct that the use of language can have a corosive effect, the obsession with language is just as corrosive or even more so - look to the Pakistan shooting thread where some twats shot 200 kids, and urban went mental over the use of the word 'savage'. its in every thread, and the cynical might think that obsessing over language is easier and cheaper than finding actual solutions, which is why some prefer it...

 

[DotCommunist]

actual solutions like not making war, going back in a time machine and stopping empire? There are no easy answers, and the people in charge aren't interested in answers anyway, easy or otherwise. Adressing things like how we discuss other people, other things aren't of as immense and pressing importance but to blithely dismiss them as 'the lefts obsession' is lazy and you know it. Someone less cynical might say that those without the power to effect meaningful change might like to address the things they can in some small way- not using shitty language, volounteering at the foodbank- for examples.

 

[weltweit]

In the shorter term, what would be a fair way of allocating incoming migrants to respective EU countries?

 

[likesfish]

Trident ? nuke libya an eritra till they glow no more migrant crisis

Look its thinking out of the box

 

[red & green]

Scrapping the Dublin Converion would be a start

 

[weltweit]

Scrapping the Dublin Converion would be a start

As I understand it, Germany has already put it aside.