Phantom roads

[Donna Ferentes]

I was watching Map Man earlier this evening and during the course of a programme on the A-Z it emerged that there are about a hundred deliberate mistakes in that book. In order to protect their copyright, the company renames (or invents, it wasn't entirely clear to me) a number of small streets - paths, walks, i.e. places where nobody lives - so that if anybody else simply reproduces their work, instead of going round mapping the city themselves, the mistakes are reproduced in the pirated copy, exposing the copying.

I wonder if this was standard procedure in urban cartography? I also wondered, more directly relevant to the London map itself - does anybody know, have they noticed, any of these phantom roads?

 

[tomas]

i've noticed that a-z is less then accurat but i've just put it down to english peoples tendency to never being able to do anything propperly. very anoying when you get lost because the number of roads you should pass doesn't match the map count. can't remeber where though.

 

[oryx]

There's just been a feature about this on Robert Elms (London 94.9 fm) - hopefully it might be re-playable. Just caught the end of it - all that sunk in was that Gant's Hill was deliberately misspelt Gnat's Hill!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

There's just been a feature about this on Robert Elms (London 94.9 fm) - hopefully it might be re-playable. Just caught the end of it - all that sunk in was that Gant's Hill was deliberately misspelt Gnat's Hill!

Ah, I'm sure I've mentioned that on here before! My old landlady's A-Z had that "error" in it and I happened to spot it while browsing. Of course I didn't realise then that the error was deliberate (if in fact it was, a likely story, pull the other one etc).

 

[Dubversion]

Robert Elms is going to carry on discussing this, i think - he's looking for phantom road for the rest of the show.

i missed the programme but listened to a documentary about the remarkable woman behind the A-Z, which was absolutely fascinating

 

[Crispy]

These errors are actually in the original OS maps that the A-Z is based on. I've been told that if you download the digital OS data (if you're a surveyor or an architect etc, you can do so at a ridiculous price) that the phantom roads are marked as such.

 

[Dubversion]

These errors are actually in the original OS maps that the A-Z is based on. I've been told that if you download the digital OS data (if you're a surveyor or an architect etc, you can do so at a ridiculous price) that the phantom roads are marked as such.

why do the people behind the A-Z claim they're deliberate inventions then?

 

[nogoodboyo]

i've noticed that a-z is less then accurat but i've just put it down to english peoples tendency to never being able to do anything propperly. very anoying when you get lost because the number of roads you should pass doesn't match the map count. can't remeber where though.

How old is your A-Z then? English people buy a new one every year.

 

[belboid]

really??!!

 

[tomas]

How old is your A-Z then? English people buy a new one every year.

that may be true but the new one isn't neceserly any different then the old one. besides, i know a number of english people who don't.

and mine is about 5 yers old now so it's time i got a new one, it's falling appart

 

[William of Walworth]

i've noticed that a-z is less then accurat but i've just put it down to english peoples tendency to never being able to do anything propperly. very anoying when you get lost because the number of roads you should pass doesn't match the map count. can't remeber where though.

Bit in bold : Tomas, thats out of order and you know it

If I said similarly generalising, insulting, and inaccurate about 'The Swedish' you'd be correctly pissed off...

Just because a fair number of English people (addicted to self-criticism) would probably agree with you, doesn't make your off the cuff comment any more true ...

Sorry for temporary derail ... no insights on the answer to DF's question I'm afraid.

 

[chio]

Gant's Hill was deliberately misspelt Gnat's Hill!

I've got a 2004 edition and Gant's Hill is spelled correctly.

 

[tomas]

Bit in bold : Tomas, thats out of order and you know it

If I said similarly generalising, insulting, and inaccurate about 'The Swedish' you'd be correctly pissed off...

Just because a fair number of English people (addicted to self-criticism) would probably agree with you, doesn't make your off the cuff comment any more true ...

Sorry for temporary derail ... no insights on the answer to DF's question I'm afraid.

sorry William, no offence ment. i probably wouldn't be pissed of but you are within your rights to be so. i do think you are a bit over sencetive however, with regards to it not being a serious attac on english or brittish people but a taunt. in any case i sincerly appologises for any hurt feelings that was not my intention. i understand that my post on the matter wasn't clear enough on that point.

 

[MysteryGuest]

You do get new roads built in the suburbs from time to time, plus you get differences in areas like docklands that are redeveloped. So the A-Z is constantly being updated.

 

[belboid]

not that constantly tho. New editions are brought out each year, but the maps havent necesarilly been updated in that time, just some of the packaging.

 

[oryx]

I've got a 2004 edition and Gant's Hill is spelled correctly.

It is in my 1993 one! I will check my 'vintage' early 50's one (while my anorak is on the spin cycle )

 

[lostexpectation]

google earth do this too

the guy on the prog said one of his work colleagues named a road after him, ie they do it at their level?

google earth do this to, fun for all the family

 

[MysteryGuest]

not that constantly tho. New editions are brought out each year, but the maps havent necesarilly been updated in that time, just some of the packaging.

I just meant that I've noticed differences between older and newer A-Zs I've had that's all. I've got no idea whether they update it every year or not.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It does expand its area a little. The junior school I went to in Pinner used to be oputside the western extent of the A-Z, but now it's just inside.

Oh, on the show they said that there were now about fifty thousand roads in London compared to about half that number when the A-Z was first produced. Which possibly relates to the discussion here.

 

[William of Walworth]

Cheers for that answer tomas

( )

 

[rednblack]

phantom objects are common practice for all mapping companies - the ordnance survey do phantom public houses, churches, phone boxes, ponds etc

 

[ICB]

These errors are actually in the original OS maps that the A-Z is based on. I've been told that if you download the digital OS data (if you're a surveyor or an architect etc, you can do so at a ridiculous price) that the phantom roads are marked as such.

All the data belongs to the OS and they introduce deliberate errors on all their maps, not just urban street ones. Some people, like Navteq, produce their own maps by driving all the roads in a reference-quality-GPS-equipped car but their maps are easily distinghuishable from OS derived ones once you're used to looking at maps all the time.

The digital OS data has no highlighting of the deliberate errors that I'm aware of (I'm the authority licensing officer for OS data, although I'm not a GIS expert so there could be something I don't know about in this area - we, and other areas of govt., pay nothing like the commercial rates, which are very high indeed).

The OS are very hot on copyright infringement especially in respect of vector data. This stance is very contentious given that UK central taxation paid for the data in the first place. It's yet another area of backdoor commercialisation/semi-privatisation.

Different areas of the country were surveyed and mapped at different scales, usually 1:1250 or 1:2500 in populous areas and 1:10000 in rural areas. There are some serious discrepancies in current mapping that are nothing to do with deliberate attempts to catch copyright infringers.

[/map geek]

 

[chio]

phantom objects are common practice for all mapping companies - the ordnance survey do phantom public houses, churches, phone boxes, ponds etc

Wouldn't that just be really annoying if you were lost in the countryside, thought "I'll go to that phone box / pub and call a taxi" and found it wasn't there?

 

[belboid]

then you'd probably blame local chavs for the phone boxes destruction/muslims for pub closure, and write a furious letter to the Daily Mail who would headline the next days edition with your story, causing riots across the land.

Oh yes, social unrest in this country - it's all the fault of the Ordnance Survey!!

 

[Stobart Stopper]

That was an excellent programme!
I have seen that van around here a few times. I just assumed it was delivering the maps to shops.

 

[Cloo]

I've heard of this before as a copyright system, while on my publishing postgrad course. One set of map-makers (I think it might have been Ordnance Survey)successfully took a case to court against (I think) the publishers of A-Z when they saw a fictional farm in an A-Z map!