tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
No, you haven't miss-read him. He's not the only one, either.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5613739.ece
Zionists usurped the holocaust
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No, you haven't miss-read him. He's not the only one, either.
Y_I_Otter
Dangerous Terroirist
That much is plain. Not even David Irving can answer for David Irving. If you'd take the trouble to read the daily transcripts of his libel action against Penguin Books and the American scholar Deborah Lipstadt, or the expert witness reports commissioned for the defense, or, at the very least, Justice Grey's summation, you'd see that nothing Irving says can be taken at face value.
He was banged up in Austria because he wanted to be banged up. His currency in the denier demi-monde was plummeting and his relationship with his partner was on the skids. Those paper bags full of US dollars he used to pick up from shadowy characters at airports had stopped coming in and nobody was buying his books anymore except for the smattering of attendees at his lectures in America. A grand gesture was called for, so he let it be known on his website that he'd be addressing a "student group" on such-and-such a date in Austria a country were he was persona no grata. He fairly begged to be arrested. It was all about getting himself in the papers and ramping up the donation gravy train so that when he got out, he could go back to living in the style to which he'd become accustomed. He did only as much time as he wanted to do; then he recanted and they shipped him home.
But it doesn't appear from your comments here that you have a very good idea of what it is you're "questioning". So far, you haven't demonstrated any understanding of the topic that couldn't be gleaned by a cursory reading of a few Holocaust denial websites.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
OK, Harrison. I’m going to assume critical faculties on your part. You’ve been told that population demographics have been used to calculate the numbers of Jews missing.
Painstaking work has been done going through the records, calculating the numbers of Jews before the War, and then allowing for those who would have died during that time in the natural course of things, allowing for those who would have been killed in the ‘normal’ course of war, and subtracting the number left after the war. We need to take account of those who fled to Britain and America and so on, adjust for those who fled first to one country then another, to make sure we’re not double counting. We need to go through the primary sources and come for pre-war figures for Poland, Hungary, Romania, Netherlands and so on. We can use the Nazi’s own records - they were obsessive bureaucrats. We take cognisance of all the recorded massacres, camps, ghettos. And so on. It is not ever going to be exact, because of the nature of the events, but serious scholars who have painstakingly gone through this process have published their figures, methodologies, working. Others can - and have - then go back to the primary sources and check them. What we end up with is a range of figures from the low 5 millions to the low 6 millions. If a serious scholar says 5.4 million, we aren’t going to quibble. But this is how the figure of around 6 million is arrived at. You can see the published work of people like Reitlinger, Hilberg, Gutman and Rozett, Benz, and so on.
Now if you are seriously challenging those people, you have to show where they’re wrong. You have to go through the primary sources, the calculations, the methodology and point out their errors. You can do that - that’s what serious history is about. People have done that, but do you know what? Time after time the figure of around 6 million comes back.
Serious questioning therefore would involve serious research. Serious questioning is not just saying “I question those figures”; it involves research and an explanation of why the figures are being questioned.
And don’t forget all the supporting evidence that the Holocaust took place. I’ve outlined that already, so I won’t repeat myself.
So why would anyone want to play down such an well-attested genocide of that magnitude? What might their motives be? I think we can conclude those would be very dangerous motives indeed.
And why would an internet berk come along and try to equate serious scholarship with plucking daft figures like “zillions” from the air? Why would we take seriously an internet berk who says things like ‘the NAZerenes‘, and ‘the HOLLOWcaust’, but who has no serious scholarship to put forward other than a vague notion that he bravely ‘questions’ the figures?
Well, sadly for you, we wouldn’t. We begin by pointing out the shortcomings, so that others can see he isn’t just being ‘shut up’, but then after that if he has no serious rebuttal to make, I’m afraid all that’s left is ridicule, if he hasn’t done that enough to himself already.
I think we've spent enough time on you now.
Painstaking work has been done going through the records, calculating the numbers of Jews before the War, and then allowing for those who would have died during that time in the natural course of things, allowing for those who would have been killed in the ‘normal’ course of war, and subtracting the number left after the war. We need to take account of those who fled to Britain and America and so on, adjust for those who fled first to one country then another, to make sure we’re not double counting. We need to go through the primary sources and come for pre-war figures for Poland, Hungary, Romania, Netherlands and so on. We can use the Nazi’s own records - they were obsessive bureaucrats. We take cognisance of all the recorded massacres, camps, ghettos. And so on. It is not ever going to be exact, because of the nature of the events, but serious scholars who have painstakingly gone through this process have published their figures, methodologies, working. Others can - and have - then go back to the primary sources and check them. What we end up with is a range of figures from the low 5 millions to the low 6 millions. If a serious scholar says 5.4 million, we aren’t going to quibble. But this is how the figure of around 6 million is arrived at. You can see the published work of people like Reitlinger, Hilberg, Gutman and Rozett, Benz, and so on.
Now if you are seriously challenging those people, you have to show where they’re wrong. You have to go through the primary sources, the calculations, the methodology and point out their errors. You can do that - that’s what serious history is about. People have done that, but do you know what? Time after time the figure of around 6 million comes back.
Serious questioning therefore would involve serious research. Serious questioning is not just saying “I question those figures”; it involves research and an explanation of why the figures are being questioned.
And don’t forget all the supporting evidence that the Holocaust took place. I’ve outlined that already, so I won’t repeat myself.
So why would anyone want to play down such an well-attested genocide of that magnitude? What might their motives be? I think we can conclude those would be very dangerous motives indeed.
And why would an internet berk come along and try to equate serious scholarship with plucking daft figures like “zillions” from the air? Why would we take seriously an internet berk who says things like ‘the NAZerenes‘, and ‘the HOLLOWcaust’, but who has no serious scholarship to put forward other than a vague notion that he bravely ‘questions’ the figures?
Well, sadly for you, we wouldn’t. We begin by pointing out the shortcomings, so that others can see he isn’t just being ‘shut up’, but then after that if he has no serious rebuttal to make, I’m afraid all that’s left is ridicule, if he hasn’t done that enough to himself already.
I think we've spent enough time on you now.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
We should also bear in mind (as mentioned and verified by sources as historically diverse as Arendt and Tooze, 40+ years apart) that those obsessively-accurate Nazi bureaucrats based their figures not only on civic and municipal records, but on cross-referenced personal and local records, so personal records were cross-referenced to the records of local synagogues to local and regional records. We're not talking Vietnam-era Marine Corps inflated body-counts of enemy dead here.
Not that Harrison is interested in scholarship. He's only interested in being an iconoclast. His problem is that he hasn't yet recognised the difference between being iconoclastic, and being a twat.
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
This neatly sums up Harrison: "making up numbers" and uttering some meaningless crap about "history".
fogbat
The Talibum
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I think the word you're looking for is "hijacked" or "appropriated". When one "usurps", one is undermining the power of another. A rival claimant to a royal title can usurp the named successor, for instance, by killing him or her, as was often the case in the Early and Late Roman Empires. Leontius, for example, ousted Justinian II Rhinotmetus, who was in turn ousted by Tiberius III Apsimar. Both Leontius and Tiberius were usurpers. Justinian got his own back on his return and had them both mutilated.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I have to say though, it's the first case i've ever seen of reverse holocaust denial - not only did it happen, the sheer scale was covered up, and more to the point, the jews did it to themselves. Very original.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
Well next time, I don't know, wear a bright shirt or something.We're terribly attention-seeking, you see.
Sheeesssh.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
G. Fieendish
Snark Hunter
One could argue that the Spanish in Cuba during the Spanish American War of 1898 implimented the policy of the "concentration camp", although it was not named as such...
Alternately, you could argue that the Andersonville POW camp, run by the Confederates during the American Civil War, could be considered as a possible prototype of later concentration camps...
(Note: The Commander of said POW camp was tried for war crimes, & executed, after the war, due to the sheer number of Unionist POW's that died there, even though letters from the commander, to his superiors, pleading for more supplies, & their refusals were submitted as part of his defence...).
HarrisonSlade
say NO to the vaccine
For a start there are many different types of Jews. Secondly, I have not mentioned any implicated in the mass murder. There were some "Jews" involved. The Rothschild Family had a big stake in IG Farben, who supplied the Nazis with the Gas which killed many of those people on an industrial scale. But that is not to say that I have said that the "Jews did it themselves". Such an outrageous remark is merely creating controversy by proxy, and is, in itself, trolling. The Third Reich was a Caucasian association, mostly consisting of Aryans. The Aryan race was responsible for the mass murder there, as it has been for many of the mass murders throughout history, whether by manipulation or straight forward action.
There are many files that have been kept under wraps regarding Nazi Germany, although some of the information has been leaked, even in the mainstream press. (ie Prescott Bush, Herbert Walker, the Dulles family, the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds all funded Adolf Hitler, and many supplied him with weapons, both military and chemical). It is now noted that even Winston Churchill was still profiting from his factories in Nazi Germany.
Much of what happened in Nazi Germany came from Zionist, but, as most Jews will agree, Zionism is not Judaism.
Exactly. History is not just an art, but also a science, a science that requires painstaking research, anlysis and in the case of archaeology a depth of knowledge of carbon dating and other such techniques.
HarrisonSlade I am afraid your "research" does not even come close to the level of research that is required by folks who do World War 2 living history.
G.Fieendish> Indeed. I am not familiar with the civil war period in the US on an indepth scale I am afraid (my area of interest is the dark ages) although I am aware of the POW camp you mentioned This quote by John McElroy sums it up rather well:
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
No it didn't.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The Rothschild shareholding in IG Farben was liquidated (at a loss) several years before Zyklon B started to be used in the death camps.
"Aryan" is an invented category. The Aryans were dark-skinned and from the area around the Hindu Kush.
Also, "Caucasian" is another constructed category. Most people described as "Caucasian" are not olive-skinned, with dark hair and dark eyes, as is the norm for the Caucasus.
There's no such thing. What there was were people of (for the most part) German nationality and/or "ethnic German" heritage.
You don't half talk a load of rubbish. It isn't "races" that perpetrate mass slaughters, it's states and their citizens.
Most Nazism had absolutely nothing to do with Zionism, except insofar as both the Nazis and a certain brand of Zionist associated with the likes of Vladimir Jabotinsky had a fondness for fascist ideology.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You know Harrison. He's clueless.
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
And what, prey tell, do they say? And how, prey tell, do you know?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
He's talking about all those secret documents about the extent to which European and American capital collaborated with the Nazi regime, even during war-time. The documents are so secret that most of them are known about.
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
Oh, right. Jesus. Never let half-wits watch The Corporation.He's talking about all those secret documents about the extent to which European and American capital collaborated with the Nazi regime, even during war-time. The documents are so secret that most of them are known about.
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