Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
It is truly an achievement. Well done, everyone.
Zionists usurped the holocaust
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It is truly an achievement. Well done, everyone.
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
The figure of 6 million is well substantiated. The figures are derived by collating the number of Jews recorded as living in Europe, transported to camps, liberated from camps, killed in Einsatzgruppen actions, and alive after the war. It is a matter of population demographics. There might be a small margin of error, but not any doubt that we are still talking about a figure around 6 million.
The inter corroboratory evidence for the holocaust includes:
Written documents: hundreds of thousands of letters, memos, blueprints, orders, bills, speeches, articles, memoirs, and confessions.
Eyewitness testimony: accounts from survivors, Kapos, Sonderkommandos, SS guards, commandants, local townspeople, and upper echelon Nazis who did not deny the Holocaust.
Photographs: official military and press photographs and films, secret photographs taken by prisoners, aerial photographs, and German and allied film footage. For example, archive aerial photographs of Auchwitz were recently moved from Keele to Edinburgh. You can see for yourself where the Zyklon B was inserted into Krema II. Before and after pictures are available.
Physical evidence: Artifacts found at the sites of camps.
Demographics: all those people the deniers claim survived are missing.
All these things add up to absolute certainty. You can quibble about this and that, but it is the inter-corroboration as well as the weight of evidence that is irrefutable.
This isn't about some arbitrary figure a "man on TV" plucked out of the air; there is an evidential basis for the estimate. Refusing to accept it - given the evidential basis - isn't being healthily skeptical, it is playing into very dangerous hands.
Yes, there has been state terror and mass murder throughout history, and yes it still continues, but that truth is not enhanced by diminishing the Holocaust.
Oh dear this one again....
The phrase concentration camp was coined during the 2nd Boer war in South Africa. This is when it entered our lexicon. However methods like this have existed under other names for a long time before we started using the phrase "concentration camp".
If you would like an exhaustive list then let me know... but please do not resort to quoting sloppy historical nonsense as fact such as "The UK invented concentration camps", no the British in South Africa invented the phrase by all accounts. I heard Alex Jones on the radio going on about this, and he managed to get just about everything wrong he was saying....
untethered
For industry & decency
More's the point, those places were literally what the name implies: a way of keeping civilians in one place under supervision. The British did not summarily execute the inmates en masse nor work them to death.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Are you familiar with the figures for deaths from disease and similar causes in those camps?
Which people?
AnnaKarpik
Queen of all she surveys
It can't be that well substantiated; off the top of my head, the figures were extrapolated from incomplete records. The figure of six million emerged fairly early in the aftermath of WWII; it is possible that no revision would be required after the records held in the former Soviet Union became available. It is equally possible that no-one would dare try to revise the numbers, felt no need to do so, or decided that they hadn't enough information to rock the boat.
And of course, there were a lot more than six million people missing from the camps. A figure of twelve million is generally accepted but that is a far cry from being 'well-substantiated.'
I too object to the Jews taking over the Holocaust; when the term was first used in relation to the Nazi treatment of anyone who didn't fit their grand plan, it referred to all of them with no regard for religion. Gradually the word has become an insult to those whose non-Jewish family members were killed.
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
Read the post, I do outline how the estimate was calculated.
Shoah is the particularly Jewish Holocaust; Holocaust, with a capital H, the general term for the Nazi genocide programme. (Victims of Nazi Hatred). The motives of anyone who diminishes any part of the Holocaust must surely be called into question, and that would include any hypothetical Jews who deny the disabled, gay, Roma, and so on, Holocaust victims.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Except that Gaza isn't "on the level" that the Nazi's final solution was, and historically we have no other recorded instance of an industrial-scale policy of murder that removed 10-12 civilian million lives (6 million Jews, 6 million assorted Gypsies, queers, Poles, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, disabled people and other "enemies of the state") through a methodical process.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/11/gaza-israel-demonstration-embassy-police
Galloways's ' Kristalnacht?'
a rather imtemperate call given the febrile atmosphere
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Adam Tooze's "The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy" manages to confirm some figures and rebut others through analysis of economic factors cross-referenced with stuff like train movements, property seizures (bear in mind that all enemies of the state" could have their property seized, not just Jews) and many other bits and pieces. He arrived at (IIRC) about 5.5-7 million Jews, and 5.5-6.5 million "other" civilians.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Galloway is a twat with a handful of not-too-bright followers. Fuck him and them.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
If people take the time to challenge the idiots (as VP, danny etc have done), then the idiot arguments fall apart and the thread is transfromed into a useful one -and the tools are either presented with facts to challenge their minds, if they don;t then their agenda is clear and they're b) isolated and laughed at.
That said, there's a whole heap of political head losing going on recently. Nasty shit as well, not just 'i think i'll vote tory this time' stuff.
That said, there's a whole heap of political head losing going on recently. Nasty shit as well, not just 'i think i'll vote tory this time' stuff.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
HarrisonSlade
say NO to the vaccine
State murder is state murder. An army firing rockets at an occupied school is on the level of the Nazis, however many people your sources claimed to have died.
HarrisonSlade
say NO to the vaccine
The camps go back further than the Boer War. They were used to keep the Native Americans in one place away from the brutal Europeans who stole their land. And were any of them executed, and worked to death?
I don't have a problem with Israel taking out murdering fuckwits who launch rockets indiscriminately at innocent people.
I do have a problem with the fact that the process of trying to take them results in the slaughter of dozens of innocent people.
HarrisonSlade
say NO to the vaccine
Many people left Germany around the 1930s/40s. They either left to escape the brutal Nazi regime, or because there were fantastic opportunitys lying elsewhere. The 6 million figure was only a guess at the time, and still is.
Doesn't account for six million.
Doesn't account for six million.
Doesn't account for six million.
Doesn't account for six million.
Who are the deniers? If you think I'm a "denier", well I've never said that, so you've made that one up.
I am not sceptical about the figures because I believe that the Nazis were wonderful people. Far from it. I do not deny mass slaughter at the hands of these "people". Far from it. The photos of corpses lying in heaps are real. They show me that the Third Reich was commiting murder on a mass scale. But I just have never found anyone say that they have evidence to how many were actually killed, or that people had their skins used for lampshades, or bones used for soap.
It works both ways, Froggie, all sorts of moral somersaults are being made on here to support people's views.
this obsession with events we can do little about is also happening at a time when the world is on the brink of a 1930's Depression, to me that is also importsnt,
The worlds leaders have called a conference of the G20, and again STWC have called yet another anti-war demo, which will mean other concerns are marginalised.
sorry if you and others think that is wrong
this obsession with events we can do little about is also happening at a time when the world is on the brink of a 1930's Depression, to me that is also importsnt,
The worlds leaders have called a conference of the G20, and again STWC have called yet another anti-war demo, which will mean other concerns are marginalised.
sorry if you and others think that is wrong
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's quite annoying when people voice their opinion, but don't give any clue how or why they arrived at the opinion!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
State murder is state murder, in terms of being an equivalently disgusting crime whichever state carries it out, but scale does make a difference, if only in how much knowledge can be garnered about events. "the holocaust" is a holocaust among holocausts, but it is unique (fortunately) in scale and in execution.
HarrisonSlade
say NO to the vaccine
I haven't arrived at an opinion. On the contrary. I have only ever seen the 10 - 12 million figure through the media and school. I haven't said that it's right or wrong (although the figure does seem to be a little far fetched), I am just saying "Give me the proof"It's quite annoying when people voice their opinion, but don't give any clue how or why they arrived at the opinion!
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
What a prize cunt.
HarrisonSlade
say NO to the vaccine
Poignant. I mean that sincerely. If anybody questions the "official" version of events (Like the earth is not flat it's a sphere) they are condemned to that kind of kneejerk behaviour. Which is why there has been no proper investigation into the "hollowcaust"
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What do you mean by 'hollow' Harrioson?
Yes there was a Israeli on the radio couple of nights ago talking about the brutality of hamas.
And yes she brought up the holocaust and she was nearly crying.
I thought what utter bollocks . Palistinians are going through genocide.And she wanted to talk about the holocaust.
Maybe she should talk about the holocaust that is happening now.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Acutally, on reflection. Just fuck off and fatally slip on your 'pump'.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
...and whilst we're at it, there's been an awful whiff off you for months. I may have commeneted on it before.
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