Zionists murder more children

[moono]

Astronaut;

Firstly, "less harmful" is a highly qualitative assessment. When read with all the other things he has written (such as "Quassams have killed very few people"), I would suggest he means "harmless." We have not mentioned either the many people who have been wounded by rockets.

Bollox. You've used your second false assertion to support your first false assertion.
You just ain't very good at this debate thang, are you sweets ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Firstly, "less harmful" is a highly qualitative assessment. When read with all the other things he has written (such as "Quassams have killed very few people"), I would suggest he means "harmless." We have not mentioned either the many people who have been wounded by rockets.

It's a quantitative statement, in that they've done less harm than the equivalent artillery round commonly used by the state of Israel.
That's a matter of fact based on the reality of an improvised "rocket" not having the same potential for destruction as an artillery round or guided missile, both designed "from the ground up" to do particular jobs efficiently.

As for what moono has written, he's absolutely right, even rachamim acknowledges this. Qassams have killed very few people. They're inefficient, inaccurate and often inert.

Secondly, 4500 rockets fired is immensely disruptive. No country would tolerate such an action, especially when rockets are hitting larger cities, not just desert.

Are artillery rounds more "tolerable"?
And of course they're disruptive. Hasn't it occurred to you that disruption rather than death might be the point?
We've mentioned "low intensity conflict". Frank Kitson, the man who invented the term and prtty much quantified the concept always maintained that a guerrilla conflict didn't have to be "won" by the guerrillas it merely had to lead to stalemate.

Thirdly, I would suggest that the militants firing the rockets are fatalistic - they know there will be a hard response, and that is precisely the reason they fire the rockets.

Which rather disregards the nature of any military structure and its' expectations of those who serve.

Personally, I think both sides are blind to what they are doing to each other, and neither really cares that much about what happens on the ground. Both sides are as bad as each other, and that goes for those too who justify firing guided missiles or unguided rockets.

I think you're partially right. Personally I believe there are elements on both sides who are blind, the same as there are elements on both sides who see all too clearly.

 

[astronaut]

It's a quantitative statement, in that they've done less harm than the equivalent artillery round commonly used by the state of Israel.

Just reading The Production of Knowledge by Bill Starbuck - he's been a highly quantitative organizational psychology / management researcher for 50 or so years (some of the stuff he's done scares me, frankly). Right now I'm reading about his disillustionment with the political motivations behind quantitative data. But, it's very well known, even without this book, that quantitative data collection and analysis is highly qualitative. Try not to think in dichotomies.

That's a matter of fact based on the reality of an improvised "rocket" not having the same potential for destruction as an artillery round or guided missile, both designed "from the ground up" to do particular jobs efficiently.

Not denying that at all.

As for what moono has written, he's absolutely right, even rachamim acknowledges this. Qassams have killed very few people. They're inefficient, inaccurate and often inert.

But to ridicule their effect is wrong (didn't Moono start a thread recently about "Israeli hurt in mattress factory"?). He think they're harmless, when clearly they are not.

the same as there are elements on both sides who see all too clearly.

Yes, I know, there are very few of us, and others here are not one of them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Just reading The Production of Knowledge by Bill Starbuck - he's been a highly quantitative organizational psychology / management researcher for 50 or so years (some of the stuff he's done scares me, frankly). Right now I'm reading about his disillustionment with the political motivations behind quantitative data. But, it's very well known, even without this book, that quantitative data collection and analysis is highly qualitative. Try not to think in dichotomies.

Only if you try not to be quite so condescending.

I'm well aware of the possible and inherent flaws in any form of data collection and collation, and of the subjective nature of any interpretation of that data. That's what makes life interesting; watching the different interpretations people apply to the same set of facts and figures.

As for "The Production of Knowledge", my supervisor lent me a copy as an example of how someone can make money by stating the obvious!

Not denying that at all.

It would be hard (and foolish) to.

But to ridicule their effect is wrong (didn't Moono start a thread recently about "Israeli hurt in mattress factory"?). He think they're harmless, when clearly they are not.

Again, he hasn't said they're "harmless". That's a word you are putting in his mouth.

 

[astronaut]

Again, he hasn't said they're "harmless".

He has strongly implied it on a number of occasions.

As for "The Production of Knowledge", my supervisor lent me a copy as an example of how someone can make money by stating the obvious!

A few of us are reading it together - we're enjoying it and saving up quotes for the inevitable next qual. vs. quant. argument we get into.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: First, the list is outdated, and says as much in the article. Less than 2 months ago another 2 were killed in the Negev. In addition, there are two others that the list failed to take into account. I will try to post names, dates, etc. I actually have the list but left it somewhere yesterday.


Moono: Measured or unmeasured responses mean nothing in this case. not only is Israel attemting to neutralise Qassam sites, it is also aiming for the perps, their workshops, their supply houses, and of course caches. When will you learn that numbers don't really matter here?

Panda: correct about Qassam construction. however, over the last 2 years they have become more complext. Many no longer use improvised fuses but still, no guidance coupled with solid propellant [fructrose] is a long way from Turbo Popeye.

Yes, they of course cause alot of trepidation. Although casualties have been minimised by the 3, soon to be 4, early warning systems, the shells cause ALOT of poperty damage. At times they land in people's living rooms so you can imagine what life is like in S'derot or Ashkelon.

Yes, guerilla warfare sometimes aims merely to bog the opponent down.

In characterising HAMAS, you err when you fail to factor in their narrow ideology. Yes, if they seek to provoke a hard response against a civlian population it would seem that victory is not thier main objective. However, they are so caught up in visions of Paradise that they predict for themselves and non-combatant neighbours who suffer because of their actions.



Moono: Are you aware the Gaza had a Jewish majority for almost 4000 years [until the turn of the 19th Cen. CE/AD]? Are you aware that the so called "West Bank" is actually almost totally comprised of the Jewish Kingdom of Judea as well as Samaria? Therefore, you make no sense when you tell Israelis to go home.

Still, that aside, Israel already left Gaza 10 months ago. Since it's left it has been bombarded daily at a higher rate than ever before. The innocent Arabs of Gaza are in more danger than ever before [ and no, not from Israel so skip the sarcasm]. What has improved?

Additionally, Israel is vacating the "West Bank" in less than 2 years. There should be no more griping about a fantasy "occupation" and a whole lot more attention to relevant issues like trying to field an able negotiating team to discuss crucial issues like mutually acceptable borders, redistribution of shared natural resources [all the aquifiers you always moan about are actually under both lands, not just the "WB"], and final security arrangements. Again the "Palestinians" waste the incredible chance that they have been giving. At least they are consistent.


Astronaut: you are absolutely correct when you state that militant know fully well that their actions will provoke a hard response and that that is their aim. CORRECT.

Then you blow it by saying "both sides are as bad as each other." Israel's Basic Law states that one of its principal aims is the total annihilation oft he Arab People? A people respinsbile for the international drug and alcohol addiction problem? A people responsible for every war on eart? In control of the media? Banking system? There is indeed a BIG difference between the two.

 

[astronaut]

Astronaut: you are absolutely correct when you state that militant know fully well that their actions will provoke a hard response and that that is their aim. CORRECT.

Ta.

Then you blow it by saying "both sides are as bad as each other." Israel's Basic Law states that one of its principal aims is the total annihilation oft he Arab People? A people respinsbile for the international drug and alcohol addiction problem? A people responsible for every war on eart? In control of the media? Banking system? There is indeed a BIG difference between the two.

The Israeli government is its own worst enemy. Hamas taunts them, and they happily play along making the most of the opportunity given to them by Hamas.

Hamas remind me of an irresponsible child giving their cousin lots and lots and lots of ice cream, in order for the cousin to vomit all over his aunts' carpet so to get into deep trouble, not caring that he'll get a smack as well. Both know it's wrong, both know it's going to end badly, but neither can resist.

I wonder if there is a game theory precedent for this? [wanders off to book shelves]

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

He hasn't said that they're harmless, he's said that they're less harmful than the artillery shell and GUIDED MISSILES Israel lobs Gaza-ward. Something which is undoubted FACT.

My guess is that the palestinians firing the 'rockets' want to kill people, but like you say, they're hard to aim, etc.

I suspect that if they could be firing howitzers, they'd do so.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Are artillery rounds more "tolerable"?.

He didn't say that. He said that 4500 rockets are immensely disruptive.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

They're not "rockets" as in "precision-made ordnance",

But they're still rockets, innit?

You know 'rockets' red glare', from the song?

They weren't 'precision made ordinance' either, but they were still rockets.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Moono: First, the list is outdated, and says as much in the article. Less than 2 months ago another 2 were killed in the Negev. In addition, there are two others that the list failed to take into account. I will try to post names, dates, etc. I actually have the list but left it somewhere yesterday.


Moono: Measured or unmeasured responses mean nothing in this case. not only is Israel attemting to neutralise Qassam sites, it is also aiming for the perps, their workshops, their supply houses, and of course caches. When will you learn that numbers don't really matter here?

Panda: correct about Qassam construction. however, over the last 2 years they have become more complext. Many no longer use improvised fuses but still, no guidance coupled with solid propellant [fructrose] is a long way from Turbo Popeye.

Yes, they of course cause alot of trepidation. Although casualties have been minimised by the 3, soon to be 4, early warning systems, the shells cause ALOT of poperty damage. At times they land in people's living rooms so you can imagine what life is like in S'derot or Ashkelon.

Yes, guerilla warfare sometimes aims merely to bog the opponent down.

In characterising HAMAS, you err when you fail to factor in their narrow ideology. Yes, if they seek to provoke a hard response against a civlian population it would seem that victory is not thier main objective. However, they are so caught up in visions of Paradise that they predict for themselves and non-combatant neighbours who suffer because of their actions.



Moono: Are you aware the Gaza had a Jewish majority for almost 4000 years [until the turn of the 19th Cen. CE/AD]? Are you aware that the so called "West Bank" is actually almost totally comprised of the Jewish Kingdom of Judea as well as Samaria? Therefore, you make no sense when you tell Israelis to go home.

Still, that aside, Israel already left Gaza 10 months ago. Since it's left it has been bombarded daily at a higher rate than ever before. The innocent Arabs of Gaza are in more danger than ever before [ and no, not from Israel so skip the sarcasm]. What has improved?

Additionally, Israel is vacating the "West Bank" in less than 2 years. There should be no more griping about a fantasy "occupation" and a whole lot more attention to relevant issues like trying to field an able negotiating team to discuss crucial issues like mutually acceptable borders, redistribution of shared natural resources [all the aquifiers you always moan about are actually under both lands, not just the "WB"], and final security arrangements. Again the "Palestinians" waste the incredible chance that they have been giving. At least they are consistent.


Astronaut: you are absolutely correct when you state that militant know fully well that their actions will provoke a hard response and that that is their aim. CORRECT.

Then you blow it by saying "both sides are as bad as each other." Israel's Basic Law states that one of its principal aims is the total annihilation oft he Arab People? A people respinsbile for the international drug and alcohol addiction problem? A people responsible for every war on eart? In control of the media? Banking system? There is indeed a BIG difference between the two.

No answers to this from the peanut gallery?

What a surprise.

 

[moono]

No answers to this from the peanut gallery?

What a surprise.

Half of it is lies and the other 50% is untrue.

Why don't you answer it. I'll sell tickets, two Zionist slugs in pedantic coitus.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Half of it is lies and the other 50% is untrue.

Why don't you answer it. I'll sell tickets, two Zionist slugs in pedantic coitus.

As opposed to watching a pro-palestinian munchkin drowning in his own vomitus.

 

[moono]

'Rachamim's Pimp' strikes me as good working title for the production. It ought to do worse than 'Springtime for Hitler'.




,

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

'Rachamim's Pimp' strikes me as good working title for the production. It ought to do worse than 'Springtime for Hitler'.




,

I'd call it "Is That A Bomb in Your Turban, Or Are You Just Happy To See Me?"

 

[ViolentPanda]

But they're still rockets, innit?

So's a soda bottle with fins placed on it and overpumped with gas. You can buy kits for about £10.

You know 'rockets' red glare', from the song?

They weren't 'precision made ordinance' either, but they were still rockets.

Actually the rockets mentioned in the song were "precision ordnance" of their time.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: You are always quick to dismiss my posts in the ugliest manner possible yet have NEVER offered a factual rebuttal. Why not break your mold and start showing just WHY my FACTS are incorrect?

Are you comparing me to Hitler?

Johnny: You made me just about piss on myself with that title.

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

Moono: You are always quick to dismiss my posts in the ugliest manner possible yet have NEVER offered a factual rebuttal. Why not break your mold and start showing just WHY my FACTS are incorrect?

Been there, Rachamim, done that. It makes no difference to your frenzy of falsehoods.

Are you comparing me to Hitler?

Who are you asking ?

You made me just about piss on myself with that title.

I suppose you might as well join in too.

 

[rachamim18]

Why you of course. Who else?

 

[moono]

Why would you think I'm comparing you to Hitler ? Has your paranoia overtaken your introversion ?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So's a soda bottle with fins placed on it and overpumped with gas. You can buy kits for about £10.


Actually the rockets mentioned in the song were "precision ordnance" of their time.

No, I think cannonballs were.

 

[moono]

A young Jewish settler seized by Palestinian militants in the West Bank has been found dead.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5125256.stm

As much as I detest the 'settler' movement as simple invasion of somebody else's country, this was cold-blooded murder and the perpetrators should be brought to account. Settlers have murdered many helpless Palestinians, but that doesn't make this acceptable.

I hope that the resistance movement can distance itself from this crime by solving it and dealing with it themselves. R.I.P. Eliyahu Asheri, aged 18.