Zionists murder more children

[cemertyone]

Fez: Israel has ceded all of Gaza to the PA. Please keep up with the facts. It still has control over the majority of the "West Bank" but only for another approximate 18 months.

Tom: As stated, Israel is pulling out of the "WB" but will not do so from golan or Sheba'a Farms.

Boogieboy: Even PIJ claims that the first van belonged to them and a Grad team. This is not in dispute by either side. In fact, according to PIJ, one of the dead was the commander of all Grad teams. From this persepctive, the event was a definite success. Grads range to 25 km [Ha'aretz erroneously listed it as 16]. They can hit many mid sized to large Israeli cities.

You really are a piece of work are you not..... i had a right see to with a zionist fuck like you at work last night.....and all the cunt could muster was Holocost and how "we" europeans where responsible for the current conflict. enough to say hes never had his balls ripped apart in the manner i messed him...of course while he wants to be a part of british society he`s never moved outside of his jewish comfort zone in Golders Green in his life...

 

[moono]

TomUS;

I'm afraid you dodged my question. Was the assination of Heydrich a crime or not? In wartime, the demand for a fair trial is ubsurd.

I didn't dodge your question at all. I repeat;

Targeted, or political, assassinations are extrajudicial executions. They are unlawful and deliberate killings carried out by order of, or with the acquiescence of, a government, outside any judicial framework. Extrajudicial executions are unlawful, even in armed conflict. In a 1998 report, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions noted that “extrajudicial executions can never be justified under any circumstances, not even in time of war.”

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew121.php

Christ, how clear can it be ?

 

[astronaut]

of course while he wants to be a part of british society he`s never moved outside of his jewish comfort zone in Golders Green in his life...

Totally out of order.

 

[nino_savatte]

That's a fairly strange sentiment. Of course it's a war (it's actually classed as a "low-intensity civil conflict"). What else could it be if not war?

It's not actually described as a war though - is it?

 

[moono]

Of course it's not a war. The war has been fought and the Palestinians are the residents of occupied territory. All the laws relating to Occupiers and Occupied apply.

 

[astronaut]

Of course it's not a war. The war has been fought and the Palestinians are the residents of occupied territory. All the laws relating to Occupiers and Occupied apply.

Like I said, the definition for this sort of conflict is "low-intensity civil war."

War (OED) - a state of armed conflict between different countries or different groups within a country.

That exactly sums up the current situation.

 

[nino_savatte]

Like I said, the definition for this sort of conflict is "low-intensity civil war."

War (OED) - a state of armed conflict between different countries or different groups within a country.

That exactly sums up the current situation.

This is your take on it and one wonders how you would view other situations. You're being selective and it's transparently obvious why.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's a fairly strange sentiment. Of course it's a war (it's actually classed as a "low-intensity civil conflict"). What else could it be if not war?

Er, a "low intensity civil conflict"?

A "policing action"?

"Insurgency"?

A war is a declared state of armed hostilities between two or more state entities.

 

[astronaut]

A war is a declared state of armed hostilities

I'm quite sure Hamas has declared endless war against Israel. So even if Israel hasn't formally declared a state of war on Palestine, there is a clear understanding that there is a war.

between two or more state entities.

Not according to OED. It can be between two groups within a single country.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Like I said, the definition for this sort of conflict is "low-intensity civil war."

War (OED) - a state of armed conflict between different countries or different groups within a country.

That exactly sums up the current situation.

Oddly my Oxford says "strife between nations conducted by force; state of open hostility and suspension of ordinary international law prevalent during such strife; military or naval or air attack or series of attacks; period of such strife".

My Chambers says "a state of conflict; a contest between states carried on by fighting".

 

[astronaut]

Oddly my Oxford says "strife between nations conducted by force; state of open hostility and suspension of ordinary international law prevalent during such strife; military or naval or air attack or series of attacks; period of such strife".

Which Oxford do you have? I've got the Concise, 11th ed.

 

[nino_savatte]

FFS!!! ^^^^

 

[ViolentPanda]

Which Oxford do you have? I've got the Concise, 11th ed.

The NODE, 1st ed 2nd rev.

I've also got a Concise, 9th ed which mentions internal armed disputes only under the rubric of "civil war".

ETA: "Civil war", in military terms means internal strife causing an ongoing state of emergency and/or martial law (paraphrased fom Holmes), and is different from "war" per se

 

[rachamim18]

Boogieboy: "Their membership is not the issue, only what they were doing when killed." Glad you think so but in reality membership in an illegal organisation [International Law, PA Law, and Israeli Law] is a crime in of itself.
As if that were not bad enough, one of the dead men was, according to PIJ, the man in charge of all Grad launchings. Then, to top it all off, the vvan was carrying Grads! You need more of a reason?

It is debateable that the men in the van were terrorists? How so? PIJ is a terrorist organisation. PIJ claims the men were members of its ogranisation, including a very high ranking member. How then is it "debatable?"

"If they were terrorists, why didn't Israel subject them to some sort of legal process?" First of all, it always requests assistance via PA Security to either effect an arrest and prosecution. Guess how many times the PA has agreed? ZERO. Still, Israel obeys protocol and asks. Then, after this fails Israel examines whether or not the individual can be apprehended by Israeli authorities with minimal risk to both Israeli authorities AND innocent Arab bystanders. If this is not feasible, they try the individual in absentia. If the individual are judged guilty and sentenced to death, Israel carries out the sentence in the most efficient means possible.

By the way, what legal process do Arab militants subject Israelis to before sentencing them to collective torture and death?

Although my response to you contains no reference to the innocent people that were also regrettably killed in this operation, I certainly do mention them in other posts.


Ann: "Israel has not yet withdrawn to 1967 Borrders." No, but it offered that in 1993, Arabs refused it. They are not after 67 Borders. ALL 26 militant groups plainly and proudly state that their main reason for existence is to reclaim ALL of the land. Ergo, they aim for Israel's destruction.

"Israel is in contravention of UN Resolutions." No, it is not. There have been NO BINDING Resolutions passed against Israel, EVER. Non-binding resolutions are nothing but opinions.

If you suggest that Israel should obey non-binding Resolutions passed by enemy states when same states ignore the Resolution recognising Israel's "Right to Exist," you make no sense. Why would anyone listen to the OPINION of someone who claims that the first entity is non-existent? You say I don't exist , yet I am supposed to listen to your opinion even when it will harm me? The idea is ludicrous.

The US invaded because Hussein flaunted BINDING Resolutions. Big difference.

Israel was not created because of the Holocaust. It was not even created [primarily anyway] because of the 2000 years Jews have suffered in Exile. It was created simply because at that time the entire region was being broken into national entities and common sense dictated that since Arabs had 21 new states, why shouldn't the Jews have at least one?

England did not have very much to do with the creation of Israel. In fact, England fought against it tooth and nail. Yes. Balfour [both] was issued but at the same time the Crown was recognising Arab claims for much of the same land. Divide and conquer, soemthing Europeans do quite well. England did it in India, etc. The Mandate was no different.

You are confusing the State of Israel, with actions of individual Israelis. Of the cases you mention, only Mr. Hundall's death was a crime and it was committed by a deranged individual, not a state action or policy.


"Terrorising families playing on beaches." Maybe you missed the part about the car 1/8th of a mile away that was targeted because it contained a Qassam team? Maybe you missed the part about a large scale Israeli operation taking place in that exact location?

How are "Palestinians" being "dehumanised" and their "lives made worthless?"

Who is "denying the rights of the 'Palestinian' " to have an independant state? Israel has agreed since 1919. In fact, it has never refused. As I stated earlier it even offered all of E. Jerusalem, Gaza, and 97% of the "West Bank." "Palestinians" REFUSED!

Binkie: Israel does not have jurisdiction over local law enforcement in Gaza but DoES have ultimate security oversight, a as well as controlling air and sea space. To take militants into custody it utilises the IDF but only when risk is minimal to both groups. As a courtesy AND a safety measure, it asks the PA to obey its mandate and its own laws and apprehend such individuals. The PA has NEVER complied.

The problem then, is how will Israel effect justice? Ground operations, like the IDF taking them into ciustody are almost always going to fail and/or be very, very bloody because of the topography of Gaza and the culture within. Gaza is one of the most densely populated spots on the planet. In addition, the urbanised areas are a warren of maze like alleys, built without any kind of building code or planning so that it is a nightmare for land ops.

Then there is the added risk of militant Intel. The minute an Israeli force crosses into Gaza it is known to all relevant people in Gaza City and Rafah. Even undercover Israeli forces have a difficult time penetrating Gaza safely.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: Comparing the Israeli action at the PA Prison is faulty. Jericho is much different than Gaza City. They are a world apaprt. They were ruled by different nations. Jericho was ruled by Jordan, Gaza by Egypt. In the so called "West Bank" there are IDF bases, Israeli "Settlements," and so on. In Gaza, none of the above. The tanks that effected the operation in Jericho were not noticed until they crossed the city line [Jericho is one of the few "West Bank" municpalities that were ceded to the PA by Israel right before the Gazan "Withdrawal/Disengagement" so that IDF tanks are very noticeable there]. Tanks or APCs [IDF APCs are not very worthy] crossing into Gaza would be known in Gaza City right away.

"Extra-judicial Execution is illegal." Was the killing of Zarqawi illegal?

"Qassams don't kill many people." Fact is, Israel has 3 early warning systems to protect its citizens. these systems save many lives. So now Israel is remiss because only 5 of its citzens have been killed [actual number is 9]? Only 5, so you might as well allow Arab militants to keep firing away cause 4500 rockets do not mean a thing. ONE LIFE IS TOO MUCH!!!!!!! the 12 fired Monday night into S'derot do not mean anything because the people there were wrned and hid in shelters?

[Edited because ;ast sentence was unfinished due to d/c]

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: First off, the prison was in Jericho, not Ramallah. Second, the reason Israel stormed it was because the prisoner it extracted was wanted for the assasination of an Israeli Govt. Minister 5 years ago. The PA was holding him on domestic charges and was going to release him. They refused to charge him with the assasination, nor did they cooperate on extradition [as if]. therefore Israel had to do what it had to do.

Panda: You are correct. Assasinations in war ARE different. However, all militant groups have declared war in Israel. Ergo, you are defending Israeli policy. Your reply to Fish not withstanding, it is very much a war. Israel is faced with a group that has declared its main goal to be the utter destruction of Israel and the annihilation of every Jew on Earth. This group is now running the PA. Even if you discount the group's actual decleration of war, its mission statement says it all.

So then, America [and Britain by the way] are NOT at war with al qadeh? Your text book definition of war mattered up until the late 60s. Guerilla campaigns do count as war.

Cemerty: Expletives aside, your "conversation at work" has nothing to do with anything. Relegate it to your journal.

 

[nino_savatte]

Well, to be prefectly honest, the geographical details are irrelevant. What matters is the fact that the IDF stormed the prison in an act that would ordinarily be considered a gross violation of sovereignty.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I don't just make stuff up you know, I'm not Rachamim.






Ferchrissake, another Zionist apologist. I don't believe you know what 'wonder' means pal. The thread is about the murder of children at the hands of a callous regime.

If you'd kept abreast of discussion you'd have noted that the IOF say that only five people have been killed by roughly 4500 rocket attacks since 2001, so don't drop that 'how many kids ' crap.


It's a very sick country which supports assassination. It's a very sick world where you have to post links to convince people that killing children is against the law.

Only 5 people with 4500 rocket attacks?

Two things:

Can't they shoot straight?

2. Isn't that a waste of ammo?

You'd think that after missing the first three thousand times, they'd try something different.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: The PA is not a national government. Israel still has ultimate security control over the "West Bank," and Gaza for that matter as well. It also controls air and sea space. It is Israel's ultimate call.

JohnnyCanuck" It was actually over 20 killed, not 5. Within Israel Proper it was only 9 [only,as if...]. the missiles' inaccuracy is due to lack of guidance. they are crude but very effective. not Only Israeli Jews, but Chinese, Thai, American, and even "Palestinians" have all been killed.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

JohnnyCanuck" It was actually over 20 killed, not 5. Within Israel Proper it was only 9 [only,as if...]. the missiles' inaccuracy is due to lack of guidance. they are crude but very effective. not Only Israeli Jews, but Chinese, Thai, American, and even "Palestinians" have all been killed.

I was sure it wasn't five.

I was just having a little sport, is all.

 

[moono]

Strange. There's a link there to an IOF statement that the number of fatalities is 5 since 2001. Not 20.

The IOF killed more Palestinians than that in just the one day's 'inaccuracies'.

There is clearly no truth in the claim that the thousands of IOF artillery shells fired into Palestine are in 'response' to rocket attacks. The disproportionality is mega. It is an excuse for ethnic cleansing by shelling, another song in the fascist repertoire.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You didn't answer my question: why 4500 palestinian rocket attacks, if they aren't hitting anything?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Only 5 people with 4500 rocket attacks?

Two things:

Can't they shoot straight?

2. Isn't that a waste of ammo?

You'd think that after missing the first three thousand times, they'd try something different.

They're not "rockets" as in "precision-made ordnance", from what I can make out they're "rockets" as in "gas cylinders packed with explosive, propellant and shrapnel", a development of the kind of crude "long distance mortars" the IRA perfected in the late 1970s and early 1980s and used to attack Downing St in the 90s.

They use them because they're cheap to make and use components that are VERY easily available, and while they may not have killed many people they' have scared a lot, which may be more effective.

 

[moono]

while they may not have killed many people they' have scared a lot, which may be more effective.

Let's nail it down. Quassams have killed very few people. Now, whilst the deaths of even those few are to be regretted the Zionist slaughter of Palestinian civilians is obscene, particularly as it is State-sponsored slaughter.
Let's not forget that the Zionist presence in Palestine is illegal. It makes a hell of a difference in deciding who is right and who is wrong in this conflict.

Israeli go home.

 

[astronaut]

Let's nail it down. Quassams have killed very few people. Now, whilst the deaths of even those few are to be regretted the Zionist slaughter of Palestinian civilians is obscene, particularly as it is State-sponsored slaughter.
Let's not forget that the Zionist presence in Palestine is illegal. It makes a hell of a difference in deciding who is right and who is wrong in this conflict.

Israeli go home.

Eight killed might well be few, but that totally contradicts your view that they are harmless.

How about you accept that they are extremely dangerous, and that it would be better for both sides if they weren't fired?

Can you be a mensch and admit somthing like that?

 

[moono]

Astronaut;

your view that they are harmless.

You're deluded.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Eight killed might well be few, but that totally contradicts your view that they are harmless.

He hasn't said that they're harmless, he's said that they're less harmful than the artillery shell and GUIDED MISSILES Israel lobs Gaza-ward. Something which is undoubted FACT.

How about you accept that they are extremely dangerous, and that it would be better for both sides if they weren't fired?

Can you be a mensch and admit somthing like that?

How about you be a mensch and stop putting words in the mouths of other people?

 

[nino_savatte]

He hasn't said that they're harmless, he's said that they're less harmful than the artillery shell and GUIDED MISSILES Israel lobs Gaza-ward. Something which is undoubted FACT.

How about you be a mensch and stop putting words in the mouths of other people?

This is something that I've noticed too. If he isn't doing that he's deliberately misreading or misreperesenting your posts.

 

[moono]

He's deluded.

 

[astronaut]

He hasn't said that they're harmless, he's said that they're less harmful than the artillery shell and GUIDED MISSILES Israel lobs Gaza-ward. Something which is undoubted FACT.

Firstly, "less harmful" is a highly qualitative assessment. When read with all the other things he has written (such as "Quassams have killed very few people"), I would suggest he means "harmless." We have not mentioned either the many people who have been wounded by rockets.

Secondly, 4500 rockets fired is immensely disruptive. No country would tolerate such an action, especially when rockets are hitting larger cities, not just desert.

Thirdly, I would suggest that the militants firing the rockets are fatalistic - they know there will be a hard response, and that is precisely the reason they fire the rockets.

Personally, I think both sides are blind to what they are doing to each other, and neither really cares that much about what happens on the ground. Both sides are as bad as each other, and that goes for those too who justify firing guided missiles or unguided rockets.