Zarqawi killed in air raid

[Johnny Canuck3]

The majority of the people killed in this war have been civilians - by the whole 'shock and awe' thing and by subsequent bombings. And, talking about propaganda, you seem to believe every word out of the mouths of the US government spokesmen - I would suggest that the idependent media have a better record when it comes to truthfulness.

There was a report recently about those 'civilian contractors' killing Iraqi citizens indiscriminately from unmarked vehicles with the blessing of the US government -

Got a cite for that report?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Did you look at the pictures of the burned bodies of civilians - I wouldn't call that an extremely weak comparison - seems more like history repeating itself to me!!

Yes, people getting killed in a war.

 

[Yossarian]

Which was it: did they shoot at people, or shoot people?

What's the difference? There's a great many criticisms to be made of the US army in Iraq, but I don't think anyone's accused them of not being able to shoot straight..

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

What's the difference? There's a great many criticisms to be made of the US army in Iraq, but I don't think anyone's accused them of not being able to shoot straight..

It wasn't your post, so I don't think you can answer.

 

[Yossarian]

There were approximately 15 killed and 75 injured in the shooting at the rioters in Fallujah - I'd guess from that there was some random shooting going on as well as some accurate head shots.

I think for a Fallujan, joining the anti-American insurgency after that incident would have been as logical as it would have been for people in Derry to join the IRA after Bloody Sunday.

 

[ZAMB]

Got a cite for that report?

There are hundreds of them on the internet - there are a few below - but I have posted them before. The first one is the best, as it's a C4 interview with one of the gunmen [civilian contractors] involved in the incidents, and he tells of how they were told to take the signs down from their cars so that they couldn't be identified, and that they never stopped to see if the civilians they shot needed help. He also points out that the so-called investigation was a farce and he wasn't even interviewed about the events. This is a british security firm employed by the USA, which makes millions in profits each year from these actions.

http://www.channel4.com/more4/news/news-opinion-feature.jsp?id=204

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11157.htm

The video, which first appeared on a website that has been linked unofficially to Aegis Defence Services, contained four separate clips, in which security guards open fire with automatic rifles at civilian cars. All of the shooting incidents apparently took place on "route Irish", a road that links the airport to Baghdad.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/112805A.shtml

If you want more look up 'aegis shooting Iraq' on Google and you'll get about 60,000 hits.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Which was it: did they shoot at people, or shoot people?

You say both in your post.

Reuters report,

FALLUJA, Iraq - U.S. soldiers killed at least 13 Iraqi civilians who marched on a school west of Baghdad to demand the troops leave the building and get out of Iraq, doctors and witnesses said on Tuesday.

Medics said 75 were also wounded in the march by more than 200 protesters on the school after Muslim prayers on Monday evening in Falluja, 30 miles from the Iraqi capital. Some witnesses put the death toll as high as 17.

Residents said the marchers were unarmed. U.S. forces said the troops opened fire only after they were shot at by a group of gunmen armed with AK-47 assault rifles.


An Iraqi man lies injured in his hospital bed surrounded by his parents in Falluja hospital, 50 kms (30 miles) west of Baghdad, April 29, 2003. U.S. troops shot dead at least 13 Iraqis during an anti-American protest in the town overnight, witnesses said on Tuesday, in a clash likely to inflame anger at the U.S. presence in Iraq. REUTERS/Ruben Sprich

The shooting outraged local people who, like many other Iraqis, welcomed the removal of Saddam Hussein by U.S.-led forces but now want the American troops to leave. It is likely to fuel anti-American sentiment elsewhere in Iraq.

U.S. helicopters hovered overhead as angry mourners buried the dead on Tuesday. The white walls of houses near the school were pock-marked by bullets, bullet-riddled cars stood by the roadside and traces of blood marked the ground.

"Our soul and our blood we will sacrifice to you martyrs," hundreds of mourners chanted as they carried at least four simple wooden coffins shoulder-high through the town.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0429-01.htm

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There were approximately 15 killed and 75 injured in the shooting at the rioters in Fallujah - I'd guess from that there was some random shooting going on as well as some accurate head shots.

I think for a Fallujan, joining the anti-American insurgency after that incident would have been as logical as it would have been for people in Derry to join the IRA after Bloody Sunday.

I can understand being pissed as hell, and wanting to kill those who shot into the crowd.

My understanding ends when they follow up by mutilating the bodies and stringing them up from lampposts.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There are hundreds of them on the internet - there are a few below - but I have posted them before. The first one is the best, as it's a C4 interview with one of the gunmen [civilian contractors] involved in the incidents, and he tells of how they were told to take the signs down from their cars so that they couldn't be identified, and that they never stopped to see if the civilians they shot needed help. He also points out that the so-called investigation was a farce and he wasn't even interviewed about the events. This is a british security firm employed by the USA, which makes millions in profits each year from these actions.
.

Actually, they worked for an american security company, called Blackwater.

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

 

[ZAMB]

Actually, they worked for an american security company, called Blackwater.

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

Ah, so you've got better info than the British government, as well as the company concerned. Why would a British company, or its website - or the British foreign office, be concerned at all if it was an american company?

Quote from the telegraph [a british newspaper]

Last night a spokesman for defence firm Aegis Defence Services - set up in 2002 by Lt Col Tim Spicer, a former Scots Guards officer - confirmed that the company was carrying out an internal investigation to see if any of their employees were involved.

The Foreign Office has also confirmed that it is investigating the contents of the video in conjunction with Aegis, one of the biggest security companies operating in Iraq. The company was recently awarded a £220 million security contract in Iraq by the United States government. Aegis conducts a number of security duties and helped with the collection of ballot papers in the country's recent referendum

Lt Col Spicer, 53, rose to public prominence in 1998 when his private military company Sandlines International was accused of breaking United Nations sanctions by selling arms to Sierra Leone.

The video first appeared on the website www.aegisIraq.co.uk. The website states: "This site does not belong to Aegis Defence Ltd, it belongs to the men on the ground who are the heart and soul of the company." The clips have been removed.

The website also contains a message from Lt Col Spicer, which reads: "I am concerned about media interest in this site and I remind everyone of their contractual obligation not to speak to or assist the media without clearing it with the project management or Aegis London.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...rq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/11/27/ixworld.html

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Ah, so you've got better info than the British government, as well as the company concerned. Why would a British company, or its website - or the British foreign office, be concerned at all if it was an american company?

Quote from the telegraph [a british newspaper]


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...rq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/11/27/ixworld.html

No, I've just got better information than you.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11772

http://revcom.us/a/1236/blackwater.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/31/iraq.main/

 

[TAE]

My understanding ends when they follow up by mutilating the bodies and stringing them up from lampposts.

Why?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Why?

Why what?

 

[TAE]

Why, if you understand that they are angry enough to kill these people, don't you understand that they are angry enough to then muilate and display the bodies?

 

[ZAMB]

No, I've just got better information than you.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11772

http://revcom.us/a/1236/blackwater.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/31/iraq.main/

These links are about a totally different incident. I wasn't talking about contractors being killed, but Iraqi civilians being gunned down from unmarked cars by Aegis operatives. Do you even read anyone's posts apart from your own? There is more than one contracting group employed by the USA, you know.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Why, if you understand that they are angry enough to kill these people, don't you understand that they are angry enough to then muilate and display the bodies?

Because there are limits even to anger.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Actually, they worked for an american security company, called Blackwater.

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

They are hired mercenaries, not security contractors. Oddly you might declare them as 'non-combatants'. They weren't wearing a US military uniform and they were driving round in an unmarked non-military vehicle. Look like 'fair game' to me, eh Johnny?

 

[Barking_Mad]

Because there are limits even to anger.

What, like dropping 500lb bombs on civilian areas? Demolishing and damaging some 80% of Fallujah? Do you support that Johnny?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

What, like dropping 500lb bombs on civilian areas? Demolishing and damaging some 80% of Fallujah? Do you support that Johnny?

It would be better if only the soldiers of either side were doing the dying.

 

[Yossarian]

I can understand being pissed as hell, and wanting to kill those who shot into the crowd.

My understanding ends when they follow up by mutilating the bodies and stringing them up from lampposts.

Seems pretty awful to me as well, but war brutalises people pretty quickly - from what I've read about Vietnam, mutilating corpses was fairly standard for "Tiger Force" and other US Army units.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Seems pretty awful to me as well, but war brutalises people pretty quickly - from what I've read about Vietnam, mutilating corpses was fairly standard for "Tiger Force" and other US Army units.

Does that make it right?

 

[Yossarian]

Nope - I guess it wasn't right for the Italian partisans to spit on Mussolini's corpse and hang him upside down either, but who can blame them?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Nope - I guess it wasn't right for the Italian partisans to spit on Mussolini's corpse and hang him upside down either, but who can blame them?

Actually, some women pissed on Mussolini's dead face before they hung him up; but that one is kind of understandable. He was the leader that brought so much misery to the country. Interesting that they also killed and hung Clara Petacci, but not Mrs. Mussolini. She was a good italian woman apparently.

Let's face it, there's no real logic when it comes to these sorts of visceral things.

 

[Yossarian]

True - I'm sure that there'd be no shortage of people happy to do unpleasant things to Saddam's corpse as well if they were to turn it over after the hanging, a lot of the tortured corpses that get dumped on Baghdad streets are those of former Ba'athists.

 

[Lock&Light]

Interesting that they also killed and hung Clara Petacci, but not Mrs. Mussolini.

They only killed Clara after she'd made it clear that she wanted to share her lover's fate, and refused to be released. There has to be something noble about that, don't you think?

 

[Barking_Mad]

It would be better if only the soldiers of either side were doing the dying.

That's a woeful attempt to dodge the question.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

True - I'm sure that there'd be no shortage of people happy to do unpleasant things to Saddam's corpse as well if they were to turn it over after the hanging, a lot of the tortured corpses that get dumped on Baghdad streets are those of former Ba'athists.

Not to mention the fact that Saddams lawyers are prime targets on Baghdad streets these days.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

They only killed Clara after she'd made it clear that she wanted to share her lover's fate, and refused to be released. There has to be something noble about that, don't you think?

Sounds more French than Italian, doesn't it?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

That's a woeful attempt to dodge the question.

Er, what was the question again?

 

[Barking_Mad]

It's the one with a question mark after it.