Your studio setup
- Thread starter beesonthewhatnow
- Start date
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
DSR-2000, since you mention it.
Are you trying to catch me out or something??
You seem to know your kit, so you'll be aware that supplying separate stereo tracks to a broadcaster would involve recording independant M&E from the main English narration, usually on track 3&4, so that the initial track 1&2 would be used for UK TX and the remaining 3&4 would be there for foreign overdubs. Obviously.
Are you trying to catch me out or something??
You seem to know your kit, so you'll be aware that supplying separate stereo tracks to a broadcaster would involve recording independant M&E from the main English narration, usually on track 3&4, so that the initial track 1&2 would be used for UK TX and the remaining 3&4 would be there for foreign overdubs. Obviously.
newbie
undisambiguated
I'm not trying to catch you out (why would I?) but I am a little bemused by your music recording practices as outlined on this thread. Can I explain why:
DVCam is a low end professional video format used mainly for location acquisition which records audio in two modes: 2 channels of 48k 16 bit or 4 channels of 32k 12 bit. Do the sums: 48000x16x2 = 32000x12x4 = the format audio bitrate.
If you're recording 4 channel audio you are mastering at 32k 12 bit (incidentally with a bandwidth of "20 Hz to 14.5 kHz") which seems to me an odd decision to make.
What you say about uk broadcasters isn't really relevant to that (not that I know of any that accept DVCam as a post or delivery format, but that's by the by).
Since we're here I'd also suggest that using an ancient Beta SP (a long superceded analogue video format) for audio mastering is a poor idea. If you really want Dolby C you'll only get it on the two analogue channels and it's put there in an attempt to clean up the "natural analogue compression", ie crap frequency response & even more crap signal to noise ratio. The 4 channels of AFM audio don't use the Dolby but do use 1980s design converters from input analogue to recorded digital and then back to analogue output again. Why would anyone choose to do that?
DVCam is a low end professional video format used mainly for location acquisition which records audio in two modes: 2 channels of 48k 16 bit or 4 channels of 32k 12 bit. Do the sums: 48000x16x2 = 32000x12x4 = the format audio bitrate.
If you're recording 4 channel audio you are mastering at 32k 12 bit (incidentally with a bandwidth of "20 Hz to 14.5 kHz") which seems to me an odd decision to make.
What you say about uk broadcasters isn't really relevant to that (not that I know of any that accept DVCam as a post or delivery format, but that's by the by).
Since we're here I'd also suggest that using an ancient Beta SP (a long superceded analogue video format) for audio mastering is a poor idea. If you really want Dolby C you'll only get it on the two analogue channels and it's put there in an attempt to clean up the "natural analogue compression", ie crap frequency response & even more crap signal to noise ratio. The 4 channels of AFM audio don't use the Dolby but do use 1980s design converters from input analogue to recorded digital and then back to analogue output again. Why would anyone choose to do that?
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
The benefits of using DVCam to master on are plainly obvious in the context of music production for TV work, the same as using any broadcast deck with split stereo recording.
The first I explained above, the importance of having separate audio channels to enable broadcasters to easily provide alternative language versions of programming. In 2 channel mode you can achieve the 48k, in 4 channel the 32k, allowing you to mix the natural sound/pics with the added music to give the editor an idea of how it should work and also to allow the music to be faded manually as seperate stereo tracks from the dialogue.
The second is the frame accuracy of timecode, when working with video-locked control timecode you can punch in and out of a recording with the effective accuracy of 1/25th of a second, which is far better than pasting in overdubs on an analogue machine when you're in a rush...even with an SMPTE stripe. Also, it's just how I'm used to doing it.
You said:
As oppposed to a CD which has different data specifications and would be difficult to pinpoint when rebuilding a programme online... ie you can't capture sound from a CD in the same way you capture video.
I have personally delivered DVCam masters to many broadcasters, not just music but programme edits too, and although they would undoubtedly prefer a DigiBeta especially nowadays, you would be surprised how many people digicut to DVCam and simply dub it to DigiBeta to save cash.
For me to hire a DigiBeta machine would cost me nearly £300 per day after all the tax and insurance - but I can hire DVCam decks for free.
Far from being some kind of obselete format, most news and documentary material is still shot on DVCam, and even the latest HD cameras give you the non HD option of DVCam recording, (the Sony Z1 for example).
My reasons for mastering onto DVCam are simple - it's cheap, I can achieve 4 track surround, (whether split over two or more seperate 48k recordings to be matched later in edit, or in 4 track simultaneous recording in, as you say, 32k), and it's a format I pretty much deal with daily.
Nowadays it's all about the HD, as I'm sure you would be aware, but even then a 48k export is the same quality - 48k is 48k, whether on DAT, or DVcam, or HD decks.
I accept what you're saying about 20 Hz to 14.5 kHz limitations, but for soundtrack work frequencies outside this range would in most cases be clipped in transmission anyway.
As for Beta SP - sure, it's an old format, so is 1/4 inch tape, but I still use it.
I like the way tape recording mangle dynamics from punchy drums, and it just sounds good to me, plus I like being able to jog/shuttle through tapes the old way, like a piece of vinyl, none of the crackly digital spikes you get with modern stuff when playing it at slower speeds, it's easier to edit sound with from the front panel.
The Roland TR808 used 80's technology, so did the AkaiS950, and the TB303, but they still can't be as accurately reproduced by computers as the real thing in terms of operational use and sounding like they used to.
I also master onto DVD, if it's easier, I have two Sony DVD recorders for archiving ideas and pissing about with noises with a view to sample them later.
Sorry if that's not quite Abbey Road in your eyes, but I make a good living out of the methods in my madness.
The first I explained above, the importance of having separate audio channels to enable broadcasters to easily provide alternative language versions of programming. In 2 channel mode you can achieve the 48k, in 4 channel the 32k, allowing you to mix the natural sound/pics with the added music to give the editor an idea of how it should work and also to allow the music to be faded manually as seperate stereo tracks from the dialogue.
The second is the frame accuracy of timecode, when working with video-locked control timecode you can punch in and out of a recording with the effective accuracy of 1/25th of a second, which is far better than pasting in overdubs on an analogue machine when you're in a rush...even with an SMPTE stripe. Also, it's just how I'm used to doing it.
You said:
which I found rather funny considering it has been the most popular format for shooting and editing for the past 10 years, therefore the ideal format for delivering music to an edit equipped with DVCam on, in addition to full quality CD, so that the EDL files generated with a programme edit will correspond with a DV tape number and timecode.
As oppposed to a CD which has different data specifications and would be difficult to pinpoint when rebuilding a programme online... ie you can't capture sound from a CD in the same way you capture video.
I have personally delivered DVCam masters to many broadcasters, not just music but programme edits too, and although they would undoubtedly prefer a DigiBeta especially nowadays, you would be surprised how many people digicut to DVCam and simply dub it to DigiBeta to save cash.
For me to hire a DigiBeta machine would cost me nearly £300 per day after all the tax and insurance - but I can hire DVCam decks for free.
Far from being some kind of obselete format, most news and documentary material is still shot on DVCam, and even the latest HD cameras give you the non HD option of DVCam recording, (the Sony Z1 for example).
My reasons for mastering onto DVCam are simple - it's cheap, I can achieve 4 track surround, (whether split over two or more seperate 48k recordings to be matched later in edit, or in 4 track simultaneous recording in, as you say, 32k), and it's a format I pretty much deal with daily.
Nowadays it's all about the HD, as I'm sure you would be aware, but even then a 48k export is the same quality - 48k is 48k, whether on DAT, or DVcam, or HD decks.
I accept what you're saying about 20 Hz to 14.5 kHz limitations, but for soundtrack work frequencies outside this range would in most cases be clipped in transmission anyway.
As for Beta SP - sure, it's an old format, so is 1/4 inch tape, but I still use it.
I like the way tape recording mangle dynamics from punchy drums, and it just sounds good to me, plus I like being able to jog/shuttle through tapes the old way, like a piece of vinyl, none of the crackly digital spikes you get with modern stuff when playing it at slower speeds, it's easier to edit sound with from the front panel.
The Roland TR808 used 80's technology, so did the AkaiS950, and the TB303, but they still can't be as accurately reproduced by computers as the real thing in terms of operational use and sounding like they used to.
I also master onto DVD, if it's easier, I have two Sony DVD recorders for archiving ideas and pissing about with noises with a view to sample them later.
Sorry if that's not quite Abbey Road in your eyes, but I make a good living out of the methods in my madness.
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
In a nutshell, coming as I do from the electro/techno cut and paste DJ style of working, messing about with old machines and unconventional mastering techniques is what I like.
Digital recording are unforgiving, digital distortion is horrible, but you can still overdrive a bassline with a kick drum into an old Beta SP machine and it compresses it nicely for sampling later on.
Why? It just does, which is all that matters to me.
Digital recording are unforgiving, digital distortion is horrible, but you can still overdrive a bassline with a kick drum into an old Beta SP machine and it compresses it nicely for sampling later on.
Why? It just does, which is all that matters to me.
newbie
undisambiguated
that explains a lot 
I didn't realise you were delivering elements into an edit - I thought you were talking about delivery of transmission masters.
IMV it's not a matter of having to match the resources of Abbey Road, so much as making appropriate use of the available technology, and I'm still unconvinced that 4 channel DVCam has much to recommend it. However, if your customers are happy then the tekkie issues may be somewhat secondary.
I think you leave yourself rather vulnerable to challenge though: sorry, I don't find your point about 32k sampling and 14.5 kHz frequency limitations being acceptable even remotely convincing when the expensive end of the industry is moving towards 24 bit and 96 or even 192kHz sampling as they strive towards ever purer sound. Whatever your budgets that is where your competition is heading. That's not a criticism btw, it's saying watch your back, producers are fickle and follow technological fashion they don't really understand.
I'm trying to highlight a difference between using a piece of equipment for an effect- whether it's an 80s sampler or an analogue recorder- and handing over your hard work on a format that doesn't do it justice. Can you produce OMFI wrapped files?
I didn't realise you were delivering elements into an edit - I thought you were talking about delivery of transmission masters. IMV it's not a matter of having to match the resources of Abbey Road, so much as making appropriate use of the available technology, and I'm still unconvinced that 4 channel DVCam has much to recommend it. However, if your customers are happy then the tekkie issues may be somewhat secondary.
I think you leave yourself rather vulnerable to challenge though: sorry, I don't find your point about 32k sampling and 14.5 kHz frequency limitations being acceptable even remotely convincing when the expensive end of the industry is moving towards 24 bit and 96 or even 192kHz sampling as they strive towards ever purer sound. Whatever your budgets that is where your competition is heading. That's not a criticism btw, it's saying watch your back, producers are fickle and follow technological fashion they don't really understand.
I'm trying to highlight a difference between using a piece of equipment for an effect- whether it's an 80s sampler or an analogue recorder- and handing over your hard work on a format that doesn't do it justice. Can you produce OMFI wrapped files?
dirtysanta
Original Casual
hitechlolife said:i paid a bit less, or rather my credit card paid less
Fucking loads to learn. We've got a demo one from Korg (we're an Oasys dealer ) and after 6 months im still ->>>>>
with some opg the features.hitechlolife
Member
dirtysanta said:Fucking loads to learn. We've got a demo one from Korg (we're an Oasys dealer ) and after 6 months im still ->>>>>
that's why i'm selling the Virus & ditching the computer for sequencing, there's too much to learn & the Oasys itself will take years to figure out, not that i'm complaining though.
dirtysanta
Original Casual
hitechlolife said:
However, if your one of these people that make TV music fora living its the prefect tool.
hitechlolife
Member
I suppose i should really, i'm not going to make much from detroit techno (that's not why i make it though) but i need to pay off this debt somehow.
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
I see what you're saying Newbie but in my line of work there's no call for anything higher than 48k... That's the standard for video and not many suites I deliver to will be able to take anything higher.
Should I be asked to deliver at 24/96 I'd borrow a mate's MOTU and do it properly in 7.1 surround I guess.
I do deliver OMFI when doing film trailers and podcasts, they like to crack my mix open in Protools and spread it about a bit.
If I'm honest I'm too lazy for that side of things, it's not creative work compared to downtuning an old 808 kick or sampling up an Ealing comedy for a load of cheesy effects, I let them deal with it.
Only a minority of people can tell the difference between what I deliver and what a full spec studio could deliver if it arrives on DigiBeta tape at 48k, and my overheads are low enough to compete pricewise.
What do you do then Newbie, PM if you'd rather not disclose publically, I'm interested because you clearly know about this stuff...
Should I be asked to deliver at 24/96 I'd borrow a mate's MOTU and do it properly in 7.1 surround I guess.
I do deliver OMFI when doing film trailers and podcasts, they like to crack my mix open in Protools and spread it about a bit.
If I'm honest I'm too lazy for that side of things, it's not creative work compared to downtuning an old 808 kick or sampling up an Ealing comedy for a load of cheesy effects, I let them deal with it.
Only a minority of people can tell the difference between what I deliver and what a full spec studio could deliver if it arrives on DigiBeta tape at 48k, and my overheads are low enough to compete pricewise.
What do you do then Newbie, PM if you'd rather not disclose publically, I'm interested because you clearly know about this stuff...
newbie
undisambiguated
I'm not suggesting you should work higher than 48k, merely that anyone who is as geeky about the technology they work with as I am will seriously question 4 channel DVCam. Especially in Soho 
tbh I'd have thought exporting as OMFI and delivering as email/ftp or on DVD was easier than DVCam, and preserves multi-channel full bandwidth with timecode in the metadata.
tbh I'd have thought exporting as OMFI and delivering as email/ftp or on DVD was easier than DVCam, and preserves multi-channel full bandwidth with timecode in the metadata.
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
newbie said:I'm not suggesting you should work higher than 48k, merely that anyone who is as geeky about the technology they work with as I am will seriously question 4 channel DVCam. Especially in Soho
Dunno mate, I've worked in Soho for long enough, unless you're spending a fortune at The Mill or one of those high end facilities, people tend not to give a toss about format, as long as the content looks/sounds alright.
I work on the laptop, so I'll go to the venue and export OMFI straight into their Pro Tools/edit systems, I leave it up to them to split the tracks how they want them.
Any more than that costs them more.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
My set up is tamborine into mic via air.
Not a pro and it's all cramped in one corner of my flat.
DAW.
PC 1 GB RAM, 2.4 GHZ P4, 2 80GB HDs, running Sonar 4.3.
M-Audio Delta 1010lt soundcard.
M-audio MIDIsport
Plugins
Native Instruments FM7.
Modart Pianoteq.
The built in Sonar stuf.
Few other bits.
Goldwave for editing and hosting various DX plugs for what I laughingly call mastering.
Hardware.
Boss Dr-670 drum machine.
Roland SH-32 VAS
Novation X-Station 61.
Line 6 Filter Pro.
Damage Control Demonizer guitar pre.
Marshall JMP1 guitar pre.
Johnson J-station amp modler.
Carl martin compression / limiter pedal (for guitar)
Joe Mique 1. Compression and mic preamp.
Marshall Valvestate.
Couple of Electro Harmonicx pedals.
1 beaten up Ibanez RG something or other,
Fender strat Deluxe (Mexican version)
Ibanez JS-1000. A rash expensive purchase but worth it for versatility.
Samick acoustic.
Ventura bass (Fender copy)
An Ebow. Which I should practise with more.
Alesis Active Mk-1s.
Beyer cans.
And my tiny Behringer Eurorack mixer for connecting soundcard to the monitors and cans.
FFS. I should be using this stuff and not drinking and posting on Urban.
DAW.
PC 1 GB RAM, 2.4 GHZ P4, 2 80GB HDs, running Sonar 4.3.
M-Audio Delta 1010lt soundcard.
M-audio MIDIsport
Plugins
Native Instruments FM7.
Modart Pianoteq.
The built in Sonar stuf.
Few other bits.
Goldwave for editing and hosting various DX plugs for what I laughingly call mastering.
Hardware.
Boss Dr-670 drum machine.
Roland SH-32 VAS
Novation X-Station 61.
Line 6 Filter Pro.
Damage Control Demonizer guitar pre.
Marshall JMP1 guitar pre.
Johnson J-station amp modler.
Carl martin compression / limiter pedal (for guitar)
Joe Mique 1. Compression and mic preamp.
Marshall Valvestate.
Couple of Electro Harmonicx pedals.
1 beaten up Ibanez RG something or other,
Fender strat Deluxe (Mexican version)
Ibanez JS-1000. A rash expensive purchase but worth it for versatility.
Samick acoustic.
Ventura bass (Fender copy)
An Ebow. Which I should practise with more.
Alesis Active Mk-1s.
Beyer cans.
And my tiny Behringer Eurorack mixer for connecting soundcard to the monitors and cans.
FFS. I should be using this stuff and not drinking and posting on Urban.
snadge said:
don't touch dx7, most completely head fuck synth to program ever invented, there are software editors available and vast soundbanks available though, as there is for the wavey.
cheap and wavestation keyboards don't come in the same breath though, they hold their price well as the sound is unbelievable.
Looked at Wavestations on Ebay. Didn't really have the cash and always got outbid.
Atmosphere. I'd love to get that one day. Synth wise am more into creating textures than actually playing troditional tunes, if that doesn't sound too wanky.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Then get yourself a copy of Absynth, it'll blow you away.xenon_2 said:
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
How do you find Sonar? The latest version looks bloody good, and I'm seriously unimpressed with Cubase 4...xenon_2 said:
beesonthewhatnow said:
Yep it's done well for me. Can't upgrade to V6 yet as my PC won't handle it but maybe later in the year. One frustrating thing I find with this version. You have a Solatus EQ you can apply to each track or bus. If you asign MIDI controls such as knobs to them, Sonar only remembers your asigns for the session.
The control possibilities have been much improved in Sonar 6 though. 64 bit audio engine, more interesting built in synth with Dimention.
Must revisit Absynth. Although am being a bit retrograde and liking my hardware stuff more ATM.
heinous seamus
Perfect in an empty room
here's my 'studio'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7600701@N06/2201185166/
yes that is the end of my bed!
edit: got a telecaster and amp as well, couldn't get them into the picture though.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7600701@N06/2201185166/
yes that is the end of my bed!
edit: got a telecaster and amp as well, couldn't get them into the picture though.
Laptop @ 1.6ghz (Celeron M) with 1GB RAM.
Cubase SE3
Atmosphere
Wusikstation
Short Circuit 2
Sound Forge
Loads of FX
Behringer UMX25 Keyboard
Tapco S5 Monitors
EMU0202 USB Audio Interface
About 20GB samples all together.
That's all I need to make my sounds, gonna get FX Expansion Guru soon though.
Cubase SE3
Atmosphere
Wusikstation
Short Circuit 2
Sound Forge
Loads of FX
Behringer UMX25 Keyboard
Tapco S5 Monitors
EMU0202 USB Audio Interface
About 20GB samples all together.
That's all I need to make my sounds, gonna get FX Expansion Guru soon though.
heinous seamus
Perfect in an empty room
chazegee said:Almost identical to my first setup.
I really need some new fx units, especially reverb. It's an expensive business though.
heinous seamus
Perfect in an empty room
Aye. I've only had it a few months. Piece of piss to use once I got my head round the manual !
northernhord
Active Member
Not much kit wise - FL studio XXL Studio, reason studio, Soundblaster Platinum soundcard, an old big fuck off Casio synth, A strat copy, a bass guitar, and a zoom multi effects unit.
100s and hundreds of onboard effects, synths and all manner of generators.
100s of my own samples that Ive generated.
100s and hundreds of onboard effects, synths and all manner of generators.
100s of my own samples that Ive generated.
heinous seamus
Perfect in an empty room
MC5 said:You can dump the MIDI data into a sequencer apparently. This is recommended just in case of data loss. Instructions to do this are in the manual, which I notice, you at least, have managed to get your head around.
Well, I only meant the basic stuff
