You can't get dole while on a course

[feyr]

this centre- http://www.alpinetiling.co.uk/free-tiling-courses.php seems to be in same sort of area as the one you brother is talking about, but runs a 1 day free taster day. maye he could try it first efore making any other decisions.

also from the alpine site

The industry qualification is an NVQ (National Vocational Qualification) which, unfortunately, is not possible to gain on short courses. On completion of your course with Alpine Tiling Training and, if it is likely that you will be seeking site-work employment, it will become necessary to obtain this qualification and, indeed, become a legal requirement in 2010.

so after the 8 week course, he'd still need to to a nvq


http://www.southkent.ac.uk do nvq 2 in tiling. they also do plastering apprenticiships

tbh, i would be wary of using my redunancy money to retrain. better to keep at least some of it as a safety buffer. he should be able to get a college course (as apposed to a training centre) for less cost and possibly more qualifiactions

 

[Zachor]

this centre- http://www.alpinetiling.co.uk/free-tiling-courses.php seems to be in same sort of area as the one you brother is talking about, but runs a 1 day free taster day. maye he could try it first efore making any other decisions.

also from the alpine site


so after the 8 week course, he'd still need to to a nvq


http://www.southkent.ac.uk do nvq 2 in tiling. they also do plastering apprenticiships

tbh, i would be wary of using my redunancy money to retrain. better to keep at least some of it as a safety buffer. he should be able to get a college course (as apposed to a training centre) for less cost and possibly more qualifiactions

Reading that makes me even more wary of such an organisation. Think its a scam to part desparate people from their money.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Also - is it tiling in particular that he's interested in then, Minnie?

Cos he'd certainly get a good plumbing/sparky/chippy/bricky course for less than that (although with more time having to be spent on it, as I already said).

But he could probably do a couple of evenings a week for a year or two for a couple of grand and come out qualified for site work and then he could do that alongside any old job, to pay the rent while he was at it (or sign on if it was part time, but I can't see him completing a part time trades course in a year, although I might be wrong).

We need more info, Minnie!

And whereabouts is he - I'm thinking of colleges that might be nearby?

Yes, interested in tiling, not interested in brickying, chippying, electricians or plumber.

Only have the info that he gave me.

I think he just gets an NVQ at the end (which if you went on to a building site, you'd probably be laughed off).


Here's what it says about the 8-week course

http://www.ableskills.co.uk/complete_nvq_tiling.htm


There's a few reviews, although they're not worth much as none of them say they went on to earn a living out of it

http://www.ableskills.co.uk/testimonials.htm

More reviews here, but again, nobody saying if they went on to further employment

http://www.qype.co.uk/place/124906-Able-Building-Skills-Centre-Dartford

 

[derf]

I'd think it is correct. To qualify for Job Seekers Allowance you have to be seeking a job and available for interview and tbf being on a course isn't seeking or leaving you available is it?

You and I know it might help your bro get off the dole but no doubt they'll say rules are rules.

It may leave him unavailable for some work but he's doing something about trying to find other work and willing to put his own cash into it.
I think he should be allowed to continue claiming as he's risking his own cash to improve his chances of getting work.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

this centre- http://www.alpinetiling.co.uk/free-tiling-courses.php seems to be in same sort of area as the one you brother is talking about, but runs a 1 day free taster day. maye he could try it first efore making any other decisions.

also from the alpine site


so after the 8 week course, he'd still need to to a nvq


http://www.southkent.ac.uk do nvq 2 in tiling. they also do plastering apprenticiships

tbh, i would be wary of using my redunancy money to retrain. better to keep at least some of it as a safety buffer. he should be able to get a college course (as apposed to a training centre) for less cost and possibly more qualifiactions

I can't actually see where Able SKills are based but I think it's in Essex which is where my brother lives.

 

[sheothebudworths]

NVQ's are totally acceptable, but you have to be working in the industry at the time you're training, iyswim.

So this is actually doing nothing more than showing him how to tile - no qualification at all at the end.

If he found one elsewhere he might get one similar to the site carpentry course I'm doing...where we do exactly the same as the NVQ students in our class, but they have to produce work based evidence.
It IS a recognised qual and you can then complete the NVQ very quickly once you're working (and pretty much AT work, because you've still done all the neccessary theory stuff...health and safety etc...at college).

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

So this is actually doing nothing more than showing him how to tile - no qualification at all at the end.

Looks like it

Throughout the 8 weeks you will be building a portfolio containing photographic evidence and certificates. This will be good practice for you should you make the decision to register with Able Skills to work towards gaining an NVQ. We will provide you with all the advise, guidance and support required to help you gather evidence of your tiling competencies to submit to an Assessor for NVQ recommendation. There will be no requirement to visit you at your place of work as all the portfolio evidence you gather will have to be verified anyway. We will be looking for you to gain photographic evidence of work you are undertaking along with quotes, drawings, estimates, job references and letters from customers relating to the work you have undertaken. This ongoing evidence and information will be encouraging as you witness the improvement in your abilities and it also enables you to see your own progression. When your portfolio is complete, Able Skills approved assessors will look over your evidence and assess your portfolio in keeping with the NVQ code of practice

 

[Zachor]

Not worth 3K imo

 

[feyr]

http://www.ableskills.co.uk/complete_nvq_tiling.htm[/URL]

from that link- " to prepare you for the Tiling industry and progression to NVQ"

so after the 8 weeks, he doesnt get an nvq, he will get work that he can use as exmaples if he goes on to do an nvq. an nvq is a recognised vocational quallification , and requires you to be working in the field at the time. if the 8 week course got him a job, then fine he could go on to do a nvq, but as you say, there isnt much info about how many of the course go on to employment

 

[Zachor]

from that link- " to prepare you for the Tiling industry and progression to NVQ"

so after the 8 weeks, he doesnt get an nvq, he will get work that he can use as exmaples if he goes on to do an nvq. an nvq is a recognised vocational quallification , and requires you to be working in the field at the time. if the 8 week course got him a job, then fine he could go on to do a nvq, but as you say, there isnt much info about how many of the course go on to employment

He'd be better off by doing some donkey work / tilers mate work and keepinga record of what he is doing. Then he can go for NVQ.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

from that link- " to prepare you for the Tiling industry and progression to NVQ"

so after the 8 weeks, he doesnt get an nvq, he will get work that he can use as exmaples if he goes on to do an nvq. an nvq is a recognised vocational quallification , and requires you to be working in the field at the time. if the 8 week course got him a job, then fine he could go on to do a nvq, but as you say, there isnt much info about how many of the course go on to employment

I think you need to explain the process of getting the NVQ to me please.

So, if he did the course, then his landlady asked him to tile her kitchen etc. someone would come round and inspect it whilst he is working and....?

how many jobs etc. would he have to do to satisfy the requirements of the NVQ and to achieve the qualification?

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

RIght, I asked him what happens in 2010 and received this:

after 2010 everyone on a construction site will have to have a CSCS card, no he has not got NVQ in tiling, it seems that you do the way i will be doing, you do the 8 week course which includes 4 certificates including a city and guilds unit accreditation towards your NVQ you then work on site or with a company or for yourself and keep a record and photos WITH YOURSELF IN THEM, you then can get a EWPA experienced worker practical assessment to lead to NVQ, only takes a couple of years, it seems tilers have a weird route still trying to figure it, but yes you will have to demonstrate and explain how to an inspector to qualify for NVQ

 

[feyr]

I think you need to explain the process of getting the NVQ to me please.

So, if he did the course, then his landlady asked him to tile her kitchen etc. someone would come round and inspect it whilst he is working and....?

how many jobs etc. would he have to do to satisfy the requirements of the NVQ and to achieve the qualification?

the course would give him all the theory side as well as technical skills. he would then need to sign up to an nvq (either at a college or through a training comapny) and be assigned an accessor tho who he'd have to demonstrate various skills . afaik, you can do this if you are in employment or self employed, not if you are doing odd jobs. often employeers will pay for the nvq

the amount of jobs would depend on the skills he was required to demonstrate, and how much the accesor could get from the work he had done for any other course

 

[sheothebudworths]

Yeah you just need 'evidence' of your work and that you've done it (so, you, standing next to your work )...that sounds a little better actually, although I have no idea how much impact that particular cert would have in getting him work, iykwim? What are the other certs?
I wonder if there's a kind of association of tilers or something, that he could call up and ask (about the certs, specifically....and what is the most desirable/recognised cert after an NVQ)....

 

[sheothebudworths]

feyr has summarised that perfectly, btw.

 

[feyr]

here is a list of training courses that are endorsed by the tiling association uk- http://www.tiles.org.uk/directory/list.shtml?cat=type&list=training.and.support

maybe your brother could contact a few of them to find out the various options open to him

another good idea would be to contact his local careers advisor http://adultlearning.essexcc.gov.uk/vip8/ccol/acc/dis/content.jsp?channelOid=18175&guideOid=18298 for contact details . he could get advise on courses , costs,benefits etc from an impartial source, before he ends up parting with his money

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

the course would give him all the theory side as well as technical skills. he would then need to sign up to an nvq (either at a college or through a training comapny) and be assigned an accessor tho who he'd have to demonstrate various skills . afaik, you can do this if you are in employment or self employed, not if you are doing odd jobs. often employeers will pay for the nvq

the amount of jobs would depend on the skills he was required to demonstrate, and how much the accesor could get from the work he had done for any other course

after 2010 everyone on a construction site will have to have a CSCS card, no he has not got NVQ in tiling, it seems that you do the way i will be doing, you do the 8 week course which includes 4 certificates including a city and guilds unit accreditation towards your NVQ you then work on site or with a company or for yourself and keep a record and photos WITH YOURSELF IN THEM, you then can get a EWPA experienced worker practical assessment to lead to NVQ, only takes a couple of years, it seems tilers have a weird route still trying to figure it, but yes you will have to demonstrate and explain how to an inspector to qualify for NVQ

I've asked him how he's going to get the jobs in the first place without an NVQ, would people take him on, or would he have to rely on private jobs?

 

[feyr]

there are 2 routes to an nvq- either the course to get theoretical training then employment and doing nvq, or getting experience ( or already having experience) and get a nvq via an experienced worker assesmant , so your brother is right

currently you dont need a cscs course by law afaik, but a lot of employers want one. once you brother got a job and enrolled on a nvq, he can apply for a trainee's cscs card which would cover him under the new regulations . once he was qualified , he would then get an expierenced worker card

sounds like your brother has thought this through, and has done his research, i would recomend he contacted his careers advise centre though before signing up to any courses though, just so he can see what other options that might cost less but lead to the same outcome, and also for advice about benefits etc

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

there are 2 routes to an nvq- either the course to get theoretical training then employment and doing nvq, or getting experience ( or already having experience) and get a nvq via an experienced worker assesmant , so your brother is right

currently you dont need a cscs course by law afaik, but a lot of employers want one. once you brother got a job and enrolled on a nvq, he can apply for a trainee's cscs card which would cover him under the new regulations . once he was qualified , he would then get an expierenced worker card

sounds like your brother has thought this through, and has done his research, i would recomend he contacted his careers advise centre though before signing up to any courses though, just so he can see what other options that might cost less but lead to the same outcome, and also for advice about benefits etc

Yes, he said by 2010 you would need a CSCS.

Apparently this course

the 8 week course includes & qualifys you for site CSCS

He said the other certs were:

yes i said its to make sure you know not to walk in front of a truck or other, its health and safety on site plus confirms your qualified or working towards your qualification, with in your trade e.g. training, or EWPA, certificates are c&g unit accreditation, intensive tiling, advanced tiling course, natural stone certificate, think thats it

PS: Should say that my brother's a tad on the gullible side which is why he's probably asking his two sisters what they think

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

there are 2 routes to an nvq- either the course to get theoretical training then employment and doing nvq, or getting experience ( or already having experience) and get a nvq via an experienced worker assesmant , so your brother is right

currently you dont need a cscs course by law afaik, but a lot of employers want one. once you brother got a job and enrolled on a nvq, he can apply for a trainee's cscs card which would cover him under the new regulations . once he was qualified , he would then get an expierenced worker card

sounds like your brother has thought this through, and has done his research, i would recomend he contacted his careers advise centre though before signing up to any courses though, just so he can see what other options that might cost less but lead to the same outcome, and also for advice about benefits etc

Yep, I have forwarded the link for careers advisor and the other link re: tiling courses and said he should ring them to see if they know anything about Able Skills?

Thanks for your advice.

I'm sure I'll be back for more

 

[geminisnake]

I'm just worried about what a huge risk it is for him, considering how little money he earns in the first place, to be spending £3000 and possibly end up flat on his face due to lack of work

As soon as I read how much it was costing I was like
Is there any way you can talk him out of this Minnie??

Ah, have read some of page two. Glad I'm not the only one who is deeply suspicious of a waste of money.
You can go to college and get paid to go and get an NVQ!!

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

As soon as I read how much it was costing I was like
Is there any way you can talk him out of this Minnie??

Ah, have read some of page two. Glad I'm not the only one who is deeply suspicious of a waste of money.
You can go to college and get paid to go and get an NVQ!!

How would it work if he went to college?

I think maybe if it was a year's course, then he wouldn't be getting the CSCS qualification as well which he'd then have to take a later date and thus after 2010 be unable to work on sites without it. Maybe that's his thinking?

 

[sheothebudworths]

How would it work if he went to college?

I think maybe if it was a year's course, then he wouldn't be getting the CSCS qualification as well which he'd then have to take a later date and thus after 2010 be unable to work on sites without it. Maybe that's his thinking?

No the CSCS is bog standard with most trade course afaik...it's no biggy really.

It'd be better for him to find out if the city and guilds cert would qualify him enough to be able to get employment reasonably easily and if it really does count as the entire theory side of an NVQ (so that he could complete the NVQ later, almost entirely on site).

Tbf, it sounds to me as though it is - but I'd ask the tile people about that for defo.

He would definitely, definitely pay far less at college (and most likely just college fees - under fifty quid - if he was in receipt of benefits and made an early application for funding...but that'd probably mean part time/2 years), but then he'd probably take at least a year to get qualified on a standard full time course.

But again they should be able to steer him in the direction of some alternatives nearby, so that he can compare all his options.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

No the CSCS is bog standard with most trade course afaik...it's no biggy really.

It'd be better for him to find out if the city and guilds cert would qualify him enough to be able to get employment reasonably easily and if it really does count as the entire theory side of an NVQ (so that he could complete the NVQ later, almost entirely on site).

Tbf, it sounds to me as though it is - but I'd ask the tile people about that for defo.

He would definitely, definitely pay far less at college (and most likely just college fees - under fifty quid - if he was in receipt of benefits and made an early application for funding...but that'd probably mean part time/2 years), but then he'd probably take at least a year to get qualified on a standard full time course.

But again they should be able to steer him in the direction of some alternatives nearby, so that he can compare all his options.

Shall forward this to him. He's mid-40s, so maybe he doesn't want to hang around while more and more people get qualified ahead of him.

Can you imagine if Europe lets Turkey in, I bet that'll hit the tilers here. They do like their mosaics and I bet you doing a kitchen/bathroom with bog-standard tiles would be a piece of piss for them

 

[sheothebudworths]

I dunno what the 2010 thing is all about, btw - but if it's just that they'd been making it legal for everyone on site to hold one, then that still wouldn't stop him getting one after that date iyswim?
I certainly don't recall any of my tutors mentioning this... ...but it is possible that I just wasn't listening - I'll try and remember to ask on Thursday.

I reckon it's more likely that they're just using that as an extra selling point, without it being much of a big deal.

 

[harpo]

Reading that makes me even more wary of such an organisation. Think its a scam to part desparate people from their money.

There are so many of these dodgy training course providers around at the moment, as you say they're trading on desperation. The best way to approach any training is to ask industry bodies which training courses they recommend and which ones lead to the qualifications required. That goes for every avenue of employment.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Yeah I can see the appeal of an intensive course then just cracking on with it - and if it IS a decent course and he gets work easily, then of course he'd earn it all back quickly enough - but then again it might be too much to pack into 9 weeks and basically just be one big rip off.

Actually I'll try and remember to ask about these sorts of training schemes too and whether they're ever worth it (my college department has a very good reputation and all the tutors are all ex-trades themselves, so I'm sure they'd have a good idea). Bet I forget, though.

 

[sheothebudworths]

The best way to approach any training is to ask industry bodies which training courses they recommend and which ones lead to the qualifications required. That goes for every avenue of employment.

Yeah - absolutely. A very quick way just to find out if it's actually even worth CONSIDERING.

 

[geminisnake]

How would it work if he went to college?

I don't know how higher education works down south. Up here you'd go to college, get funding and get a qualification. I don't think that CSCS thing is going to cost him anywhere near £3K if he did have to get one himself afterwards.

Tell him to look for NVQ courses, I really think there will be something out there a LOT cheaper.

Sheo, tiling isn't rocket science. It tends to be one of those things you can either do or not. There will be tips and problems that you can be taught to spot/work out etc but a few months would probably cover everything tbh, then it's just practise.

 

[beeboo]

As soon as I read how much it was costing I was like
Is there any way you can talk him out of this Minnie??

Ah, have read some of page two. Glad I'm not the only one who is deeply suspicious of a waste of money.
You can go to college and get paid to go and get an NVQ!!

I don't like the sound of it either. I think he should definitely not do this unless he's fully researched other options and found this is definitely the best one for him - it sounds like he currently hasn't done that, so risking £3k would be foolish.