Yet another woman cyclist killed by a lorry

[Treacle Toes]

RIP cyclist Lady

Hopefully a white bike will appear there very soon. I think there are a great way to build awareness of cyclist deaths.

 

[Biddlybee]

Makes your heart sink when you see one though

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

hmm, has anyone ever seen any enforcement of the ASL provisions in the Highway Code?

nope, never, even when the cops have been pulled up behind someone who's strayed over into the box.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

They might be far more of a danger to us, they're bigger than cars, have reduced visibility all round, but that's not to say HGV drivers are out to get cyclists! wtf?

When 9 out of 11 fatalities are caused by lorries, and when there's so many examples of the drivers being found guilty of an offence, then I see nothing wrong with asking if it's deliberate. Please, go have a look at those links, or just do a simple google search of "cyclist killed by lorry"

Actually, it's impossible to look at those stats and not insult lorry drivers in some way. Should I conclude that they're criminally incompetent, or that they're actually doing it on purpose, or both?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Makes your heart sink when you see one though

Yes bee it does BUT...it also makes me think (as a cyclist) about how careful I should be and I ride defensively. Also, it helps to build awareness in other road users to the dangers of cycling in London and how we ALL need to consider eachother.

 

[newbie]

They might be far more of a danger to us, they're bigger than cars, have reduced visibility all round, but that's not to say HGV drivers are out to get cyclists! wtf?

V. sad that another cyclist has died

yet what's striking about the statistic- 9 of 11 deaths involved lorries- is that bus drivers manage to not kill cyclists. We're much more of a problem to them, sharing bus lanes and constantly having to overtake at stops and then be overtaken in order to do it all over again, and there's far more bus miles per year in london than lorry miles. Their visibility is just as limited and they have all the same limitations on manouverability.

 

[newbie]

nope, never, even when the cops have been pulled up behind someone who's strayed over into the box.

I've challenged police who've deliberately pulled up in the box and been told that they're emergency vehicles and therefore exempt. Same story from an ambulance motorbike, but at least neither just told me to fuck off which is the normal response, particularly from motorcyclists who seem to believe that they're allowed.

 

[Biddlybee]

yet what's striking about the statistic- 9 of 11 deaths involved lorries- is that bus drivers manage to not kill cyclists. We're much more of a problem to them, sharing bus lanes and constantly having to overtake at stops and then be overtaken in order to do it all over again, and there's far more bus miles per year in london than lorry miles. Their visibility is just as limited and they have all the same limitations on manouverability.

I'm not disputing that something needs to be done (what, I don't know), or that a majority of vehicles involved in cyclist deaths are lorry drivers, it was the "out to get cyclists" comment and insinuation that it's deliberate that got me a bit.

 

[Treacle Toes]

yet what's striking about the statistic- 9 of 11 deaths involved lorries- is that bus drivers manage to not kill cyclists. We're much more of a problem to them, sharing bus lanes and constantly having to overtake at stops and then be overtaken in order to do it all over again, and there's far more bus miles per year in london than lorry miles. Their visibility is just as limited and they have all the same limitations on manouverability.

To be fair, I think buses have much better visability than lorries due to height of vehicle/driver and amount of glass/windows. I also imagine bus drivers are trined to be more aware on account of them sharing their bus lanes with us cyclists. But, as you said it is interesting that 9/11 deaths involved lorries.

 

[maomao]

hmm, has anyone ever seen any enforcement of the ASL provisions in the Highway Code?

They had a 'crackdown' for one day shortly after they were introduced. A van driver at a company I was working for was told off but not fined and I saw a taxi driver being spoken to about it on the same day. Since then I've never heard of it.

 

[London_Calling]

I don't know if it's part of the training or because they deal with them all day long but, ime, bus drivers are highly aware of cyclists. Fwiw, I always give them a thumbs up when they've obviously thought about it.

I suppose lorry drivers are more used to motorways and deadlines and perhaps find cities a hassle.

 

[cybertect]

Two big differences with buses, especially modern low-floor ones:

- There's very little clearance below the bottom of the vehicle. It's practically impossible to go underneath one unless it's driven right over you. Compare this with HGVs and construction vehicles, where it's very easy to go under the rear wheels as there is often a huge gap to fall into.

- Bus drivers drive the same route every day, so they're very much more familiar with the roads and junctions. With that familiarity, they know where the pinch points are and have more time to attend to what else is going on around them. A large number of the cyclist fatalities seem to be construction vehicles (cement mixers, etc.) where it's likely that the driver is unfamiliar with the roads and his /her attention is partially on finding a way to their destination.

One other factor - while buses and cyclists share bus lanes, it's junctions, especially with vehicles turning left, that seem to be particularly hazardous. While there are conflict opportunities on a bus lane, they're not likely to be as dangerous as those at junctions. Moreover, regularly commuting cyclists are likely to know the bus routes on their journey and will be able to anticipate when buses are going to turn and avoid getting in places where buses will turn.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The point about familiarity is a GOOD one. I know the 'hotspots' and dangers of all my regular cycle routes around town. Drivers are the same I imagine.

 

[Boycey]

- Bus drivers drive the same route every day, so they're very much more familiar with the roads and junctions. With that familiarity, they know where the pinch points are and have more time to attend to what else is going on around them. A large number of the cyclist fatalities seem to be construction vehicles (cement mixers, etc.) where it's likely that the driver is unfamiliar with the roads and his /her attention is partially on finding a way to their destination.

bus drivers are also just that: bus drivers, lots of HGVs are driven by someone who happens to have a license but is not a professional HGV driver. this applies especially to the kind of vehicles carrying rubble and scrap from building sites.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

I don't know if it's part of the training or because they deal with them all day long but, ime, bus drivers are highly aware of cyclists. Fwiw, I always give them a thumbs up when they've obviously thought about it.

Same experience here - and I also think it's a good idea to give a wave/thumbs up when they've been looking out for you.

Hell, the only time I got very badly smacked up on my bike it was a bus-driver who was the first to stop and offer assistance (and act as a witness).

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

bus drivers are also just that: bus drivers, lots of HGVs are driven by someone who happens to have a license but is not a professional HGV driver. this applies especially to the kind of vehicles carrying rubble and scrap from building sites.

sorry mate but that isn't true, you need an hgv license to drive an hgv, it's not something you get by accident. i can drive up to 7.5 tonnes with my license but that has been limited downwards more recently.

 

[newbie]

Two big differences with buses, especially modern low-floor ones:

- There's very little clearance below the bottom of the vehicle. It's practically impossible to go underneath one unless it's driven right over you. Compare this with HGVs and construction vehicles, where it's very easy to go under the rear wheels as there is often a huge gap to fall into.

- Bus drivers drive the same route every day, so they're very much more familiar with the roads and junctions. With that familiarity, they know where the pinch points are and have more time to attend to what else is going on around them. A large number of the cyclist fatalities seem to be construction vehicles (cement mixers, etc.) where it's likely that the driver is unfamiliar with the roads and his /her attention is partially on finding a way to their destination.

One other factor - while buses and cyclists share bus lanes, it's junctions, especially with vehicles turning left, that seem to be particularly hazardous. While there are conflict opportunities on a bus lane, they're not likely to be as dangerous as those at junctions. Moreover, regularly commuting cyclists are likely to know the bus routes on their journey and will be able to anticipate when buses are going to turn and avoid getting in places where buses will turn.

all good points, but it's perhaps particularly the first one that makes the difference to the severity of a junction collision, because a bus turning left will push the whole cycle out rather than allowing the bike and lower half of the body to go under the wheels.

 

[cybertect]

Correction of my figures in the OP from http://www.movingtargetzine.com/

Therefore this would be the 8th cyclist to have been killed by a collision with a lorry in 2009, of which at least 6 were female.

 

[gentlegreen]

I don't think there's actually any legal enforcement possible regarding ASLs. There's one I use daily at lights on a roundabout (motorway junction) where cars routinely sail through on red and the following cars seem to deliberately go some way into the box.

I try not to get angry and just create my own ASL on the roundabout itself and in front of as many offenders as possible. I have to go early anyway (on amber on the lights to my left) due to the traffic light sequencing encouraging the petrolheads behind me to try and cut me up (at my own risk after waiting for cars from my right to finish going through on their amber, and quite often red).

I do this in full view of CCTV cameras but have yet to see any enforcement.

It's a jungle out there.

 

[T & P]

While some of the accidents will no doubt have been the lorry driver's fault, others will be not. From what I see on my daily commute there are still worringly high numbers of cyclists who think it's okay to undertake lorries at lights or junctions.

It's just not worth the risk. I can't believe some people still do it.

 

[paolo]

all good points, but it's perhaps particularly the first one that makes the difference to the severity of a junction collision, because a bus turning left will push the whole cycle out rather than allowing the bike and lower half of the body to go under the wheels.

I was wondering the other day about this... about the idea of HGVs having some kind of skirt. It would only need a rigid bottom frame. The rest, between that and the trailer chassis, could be lorry tarp. Then make it a condition of entry for driving into certain cities.

Has something like this ever been proposed? I can't be the first person to have thought of it.

 

[Boycey]

sorry mate but that isn't true, you need an hgv license to drive an hgv, it's not something you get by accident. i can drive up to 7.5 tonnes with my license but that has been limited downwards more recently.

i didn't say they didn't have a license- i said that they were not professional HGV drivers. the distinction i'm making is that someone who spends all day in the same vehicle is going to be more aware of it's shortcomings than someone who is doing a single run at the end of the day for a few extra quid.

 

[mauvais]

I saw an HGV yesterday - ahead of me - with a nearside compartment door swinging in the breeze - would have been enough to take a cyclist out, and then who knows, under the lorry I suppose. Fortunately they noticed and stopped shortly afterwards, but that shit me up - that's the sort of stuff you can't see coming.

 

[T & P]

I was wondering the other day about this... about the idea of HGVs having some kind of skirt. It would only need a rigid bottom frame. The rest, between that and the trailer chassis, could be lorry tarp. Then make it a condition of entry for driving into certain cities.

Has something like this ever been proposed? I can't be the first person to have thought of it.

I thought to a degree many of them already did. I think it was designed with motorcycles in mind, so they don't go under if they slid on the road or collide with the lorry, but it should work also with cyclists.

The item in question is two metal bars running the length of the lorry between the wheel axles, providing a kind of 'fence' or barrier that prevents a person from going under the lorry.

 

[T & P]

This is what I was talking about: the two metal bars that can be seen here running alongside the main body of the lorry.

The front wheels of the lorry are another matter however, and one for which I see no solution.

 

[Diamond]

I reckon that all cyclists should be made to pass the full driving license test.

The difference between my friends who cycle and have passed that test and those who have not taken it is enormous.

 

[Boycey]

I reckon that all cyclists should be made to pass the full driving license test.

The difference between my friends who cycle and have passed that test and those who have not taken it is enormous.

i think you should suck my dick

 

[Diamond]

It's a simple difference.

On the one hand you've got a group of people who have had to learn the highway code and learn how motor vehicle drivers think on the road, and on the other you have people who have very little idea about drivers' intentions in any given situation.

It's like learning a language which you can read from the environment you're cycling through.

And also, to suggest that HGV are deliberately setting out to kill cyclists is remarkably stupid.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

i didn't say they didn't have a license- i said that they were not professional HGV drivers. the distinction i'm making is that someone who spends all day in the same vehicle is going to be more aware of it's shortcomings than someone who is doing a single run at the end of the day for a few extra quid.

red herring imo. i don't think these accidents are generally caused by someone up for earning a few spondoolies extra. i think its a combination of inadequate road skills on both sides as well as a lack of respect more generally for cyclists, some of which is, unfortunately, bought to bear by the irresponsible way that some people cycle.

 

[gentlegreen]

I reckon that all cyclists should be made to pass the full driving license test.

The difference between my friends who cycle and have passed that test and those who have not taken it is enormous.

There's more than a grain of truth in this - though it should also work the other way round. Proper training for all road users at least - it would have to be subsidised.

I find it deeply worrying when I see youngsters weaving in and out of traffic and squeezing themselves down the aforementioned sides of lorries - similarly riding without lights - it's almost as if they believe that if no one sees them, they'll be OK. And I saw my second BMX without brakes this morning ...

Equally galling to see van drivers failing to signal when turning left. Unfortunately the most recent two I've witnessed didn't have "please report my driving" notices on the back ...