Yet another reason to NOT vote Green

[nino_savatte]

I don't disagree that the Palestinians have been subject to a great injustice where I differ from others is that I disagree with the idea of a one state solution.

The only people who were truly against the one-state solution were the British occupiers and their Zionist flunkies. Until the British carved up the Middle East, Jews, Xtians and Muslims lived side by side and in harmony. How did this happen? Ask Orde Wingate....oh, he's dead.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I am not 'getting digs' in, certainly not against 'the left'. I am trying to point out lessons that can be easily learnt from historical examples of mistakes made by certain section of that left. I think that is a useful thing to do - I think learning such lessons is a useful way to avoid repeating them.

isn't this a pragmatical fallicy though...

the left wing groups are in these cases always localised and non afilliated havent' neceacerraly got a plan after the intial action to stop or fundamendally change things find themselves effectively the gate keepers and make do settle in. As such no lessons can be learned from this by anyone on the left as each situation will be utterly specific to the circumstances. attempting to plan for every eventuallity would be painstaking and pointless...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The only people who were truly against the one-state solution were the British occupiers and their Zionist flunkies. Until the British carved up the Middle East, Jews, Xtians and Muslims lived side by side and in harmony. How did this happen? Ask Orde Wingate....oh, he's dead.

and realistically it is the only true way to resolve all the issues. one state one goverenment represenational of all the people within the shared boarders...

 

[tbaldwin]

A bit like the early civil rights movement in NI?

Indeed - its a shame I could see it going the same way as the civil rights movements with outside lefties cheerleading as 'left' nationalists take the whole shabang over - rather than opposing such...

Some of the Lefts cheerleading of the IRA and INLA was preety sad at times. And now some are repeating the mistake in relation to Israel/Palestine..

Its like they want to have simple truths and pantomine baddies just like the Daily Mail but they have chosen different goodies and baddies.
But Life is far more complex.

 

[tbaldwin]

I remember as a young member of red action being told read this read that....Always books putting the Irish republican view...Ten Men Dead etc etc....Read loads of them....Never read one from a loyalist point of view till i left red action...Then read Steve Bruces book.....But the problem is with most liberal/lefties is that they are too content to get a one sided view of conflicts.

 

[Spion]

I remember as a young member of red action being told read this read that....Always books putting the Irish republican view...Ten Men Dead etc etc....Read loads of them....Never read one from a loyalist point of view till i left red action...Then read Steve Bruces book.....But the problem is with most liberal/lefties is that they are too content to get a one sided view of conflicts.

Sounds like you're generalising from your own experience to me

 

[tbaldwin]

Sounds like you're generalising from your own experience to me

Of course i'm speaking from my experience...But looking at how sections of the Left have been recently around issues like Palestine and Iraq, i dont really see much evidence of many of the left rejecting goodie and baddie politics just yet.

 

[Spion]

Of course i'm speaking from my experience...But looking at how sections of the Left have been recently around issues like Palestine and Iraq, i dont really see much evidence of many of the left rejecting goodie and baddie politics just yet.

Well, Israel shouldn't be battering the Gaza Ghetto and the US/UK shouldn't have invaded Iraq. Don't you agree?

 

[tbaldwin]

Well, Israel shouldn't be battering the Gaza Ghetto and the US/UK shouldn't have invaded Iraq. Don't you agree?

Probably... As in i'm not 100% certain.

I think that a huge problem on the orthodox left is that people seem just a bit too sure for comfort at times.
But how can i be 100% sure about what the US/UK should have done re Iraq or what Israel should do to protect its citizens?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Probably... As in i'm not 100% certain.

I think that a huge problem on the orthodox left is that people seem just a bit too sure for comfort at times.
But how can i be 100% sure about what the US/UK should have done re Iraq or what Israel should do to protect its citizens?

wriggle.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Some of the Lefts cheerleading of the IRA and INLA was preety sad at times. And now some are repeating the mistake in relation to Israel/Palestine..

Its like they want to have simple truths and pantomine baddies just like the Daily Mail but they have chosen different goodies and baddies.
But Life is far more complex.

Very well put. Digging heels in and backing those who are anti freedom or are closet or real dictators, or who are dangerous religous fascists on the grounds that they are anti american is reducing the amount of support Left groups get not just in this country but across the world.

If Left groups continue to be 'useful idiots' to Islamists (and I do draw a distinction between Muslims as a people and a faith and the sucide murderers of various kinds) then they shall not just be an irrelevance but will invite justified disgust from all who wish to see genuine peace.

I noticed from this weeks Jewish Chronicle that this stupid vote for a boycott by the Greens is being challenged and there were two letters decrying the negative impact it will have on those working for a peaceful solution to the problems both between peoples and the environment in Israel / Palestine.

Lets say no to the useless ultra left grandstanding and boycotts that only benefit the Islamists and the anti semites both here and in the middle east.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Lets say no to the useless ultra left grandstanding and boycotts that only benefit the Islamists and the anti semites both here and in the middle east.

I do hope you have some proof to back up tat the green party are as you put it anti semitic other wise you might find yourself in court...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I do hope you have some proof to back up tat the green party are as you put it anti semitic other wise you might find yourself in court...

Pull the toys back into the pram Garf. I said that this and similar actions by ultra left groupings only benefit Islamists and antisemites. I didn't say that the Greens themselves are antisemitic just that this misguided policy will give succor and support to such people.

I also have read the Tellytubbies Book of Libel Law which you also must have read to come to the conclusion that I have alleged the Greens are antisemitic.

 

[Spion]

Very well put. Digging heels in and backing those who are anti freedom or are closet or real dictators, or who are dangerous religous fascists on the grounds that they are anti american is reducing the amount of support Left groups get not just in this country but across the world.

If Left groups continue to be 'useful idiots' to Islamists (and I do draw a distinction between Muslims as a people and a faith and the sucide murderers of various kinds) then they shall not just be an irrelevance but will invite justified disgust from all who wish to see genuine peace.

I noticed from this weeks Jewish Chronicle that this stupid vote for a boycott by the Greens is being challenged and there were two letters decrying the negative impact it will have on those working for a peaceful solution to the problems both between peoples and the environment in Israel / Palestine.

Lets say no to the useless ultra left grandstanding and boycotts that only benefit the Islamists and the anti semites both here and in the middle east.

This just comes across as mealy mouthed crap in the current circumstances.

While the Israelis batter the people they forced into the the Gaza Ghetto after stelaing their land and homes I think every one of those Palestinians that resists them deserves support in that act.

It's a sick testament to your one-eyed support for the oppressor that you do not

 

[nino_savatte]

Probably... As in i'm not 100% certain.

I think that a huge problem on the orthodox left is that people seem just a bit too sure for comfort at times.
But how can i be 100% sure about what the US/UK should have done re Iraq or what Israel should do to protect its citizens?

What is the "orthodox left"? Moreover, where do you get such stupid catchphrases?

 

[nino_savatte]

ultra left

Haven't you lot got anything that doesn't include a meaningless catchphrase?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Pull the toys back into the pram Garf. I said that this and similar actions by ultra left groupings only benefit Islamists and antisemites. I didn't say that the Greens themselves are antisemitic just that this misguided policy will give succor and support to such people.

I also have read the Tellytubbies Book of Libel Law which you also must have read to come to the conclusion that I have alleged the Greens are antisemitic.

as oppossed to the mr men book of new jew zealitory and percy persicution and his complex does faux religion for love you'e bought in to ...

sweetie you've had a roguth time of it in the past, but i can honestly say that this consistant turn of event is making you look and act like a prize cunt. It's got nothing whatosever to do with the form but how you are manipluating it to thinely disguse your own attitudes.

either that or you are being indoctrinated into some pretty abhorant right wing rhetoric and it is being donw under the auspices of you learnign a new releigion.

what you are saying isn't so, more over it's not so for the majority of Jews the world over.

you are being sardonic and a misery and also quoting second hand opinions of situations you clearly don't know the first thing about in order to protray yourself as being in with the othordoxy but your aren't. you have merely become a puppet for their hate ful rhetoric...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

bollocks snipped...

I used to think of you as a relatively sensible person but not anymore. You no longer play the ball you play the man and not just with me I've seen you do it with Poster and with others who question your worldview.

I'm willing to be pulled on things where I've made a genuine mistake or where I've drunk too much beer before hitting keyboard but when I and others question the validity and sense and long term potential negative outcomes of knee jerk policies like the Green vote for boycotts of Israel or other similar issues that go against your dogma you automatically start throwing the toys out of the pram.

As I've said time and time again on here and been ignored and and slagged off for it time and time again on here the middle east problem is not a Israel bad Palestinians good situation nor vice versa as there violent ideologes on both sides. The differnece is in Israel people can vote these nutters in and out of power which sadly is a dangerous if not impossible thing to do both in the Palestininan territories (speaking out against Hamas is inviting attack) and the surrounding Arab countries.

I don't support the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza never have never will but I do support a force that flushes out the rocket teams and either captures them and puts them on trial in an open court ideally or deals with them in a military manner with as little loss of civilian life as possible.

 

[nino_savatte]

I don't support the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza never have never will but I do support a force that flushes out the rocket teams and either captures them and puts them on trial in an open court ideally or deals with them in a military manner with as little loss of civilian life as possible.

You give with one hand and take away with the other. Your 'concern' for the Palestinians is nowt but crocodile tears.