Yet another reason to NOT vote Green

[GarfieldLeChat]

Tell you what - from now on I'll first PM you before I post on any forum asking for permission.

tell you what instead of descending on every bloody thread like some effet prattling loon with your on high proncements on all matters which you haven't the foggyest why not drop the brand new to poltical debate schtich you have been going round with the puppy like enthusasm it's lovely but we adults are talking and your constant yaping is becoming increasingly distracting...

ssssh now child.

 

[poster342002]

tell you what instead of descending on every bloody thread like some effet prattling loon with your on high proncements on all matters which you haven't the foggyest why not drop the brand new to poltical debate schtich you have been going round with the puppy like enthusasm it's lovely but we adults are talking and your constant yaping is becoming increasingly distracting...

ssssh now child.

Bet you spent ages rehearsing that one in the toilet (which is rather apt) and will spend the entire evening chorlting to yourself about what you think was such a devastatingly witty and sophisticated riposte.

Ladies and gentleman - I give you GarfieldLeChat: the new Oscar Wilde!

 

[nino_savatte]

Israel has made some terrible terrible mistakes over the years but so have the Palestinians voting for Hamas for example.

That was a democratic choice. So because the majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas, that is a reason to accuse them of making "terrible mistakes" and to subject the people to a form of collective punishment? By the same token, one could argue that Israelis who voted for Likud and Karima were also making "terrible mistakes". But then, here in the US/UK, we view 'democracy' somewhat selectively.

I detect the heavy whiff of hypocrisy.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

That was a democratic choice. So because the majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas, that is a reason to accuse them of making "terrible mistakes" and to subject the people to a form of collective punishment? By the same token, one could argue that Israelis who voted for Likud and Karima were also making "terrible mistakes". But then, here in the US/UK, we view 'democracy' somewhat selectively.

I detect the heavy whiff of hypocrisy.

At least in Israel votes for Likud or Shas are balanced out by having what is called an opposition. Those who try to peacefully oppose Hamas end up dead - some democracy they've set up in the OT's isn't it.

 

[nino_savatte]

At least in Israel votes for Likud or Shas are balanced out by having what is called an opposition. Those who try to peacefully oppose Hamas end up dead - some democracy they've set up in the OT's isn't it.

Leave it out, the entire state of Israel is militarised; opposing further military action in Israel is an almost fruitless activity (ask Mordechai Vanunu). As for Hamas, you've ignored the current mess that's split Gaza from the West Bank. Oh and the Israeli opposition is just as bad as the government. The Communists are the only party with any sense imo.

 

[Spion]

And which govts kept them in refugee camps instead of integrating them? It certainly wasn't the Israeli govts it was the Arab govts who needed something they could bash Israel with and being able to point at 'those poor oppressed Palestinians all locked up in camps' fitted the bill perfectly.

So if I kicked you out of your house and you went to live with relatives people should blame your relatives rather than me for your situation? You're fucking twisted, KJ

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Leave it out, the entire state of Israel is militarised; opposing further military action in Israel is an almost fruitless activity (ask Mordechai Vanunu). As for Hamas, you've ignored the current mess that's split Gaza from the West Bank. Oh and the Israeli opposition is just as bad as the government. The Communists are the only party with any sense imo.

The militarisation is part of the problem and is a reaction to the situation that the country has been placed in.

I will agree with you on one thing militarisation of any nation to the extent that Israel is or the UK has been in the past does cause problems to a nations psyche.

You can't expect a 19 or 20 year old solidier to have to cope with being attacked and having to fight day in day out and then expect them to go home and play happy families without expecting a negative result. This sort of militarisation is a cause of domestic violence, mental illness and other societal destabilising things.

 

[Spion]

The militarisation is part of the problem and is a reaction to the situation that the country has been placed in.

I will agree with you on one thing militarisation of any nation to the extent that Israel is or the UK has been in the past does cause problems to a nations psyche.

You can't expect a 19 or 20 year old solidier to have to cope with being attacked and having to fight day in day out and then expect them to go home and play happy families without expecting a negative result. This sort of militarisation is a cause of domestic violence, mental illness and other societal destabilising things.

and they are militarised, and have to fight all the time because they are thieves. If I stole your house and put you in a barbed wire compund in the garden I'd probably have to fight you all the time too and put up with you throwing things at me.

 

[nino_savatte]

The militarisation is part of the problem and is a reaction to the situation that the country has been placed in.

I will agree with you on one thing militarisation of any nation to the extent that Israel is or the UK has been in the past does cause problems to a nations psyche.

You can't expect a 19 or 20 year old solidier to have to cope with being attacked and having to fight day in day out and then expect them to go home and play happy families without expecting a negative result. This sort of militarisation is a cause of domestic violence, mental illness and other societal destabilising things.

So whose fault is this then?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Agreed.

The Jews had a right to return to the land that they had been forcibly removed from (and had always had a presence in) by the Romans and then subjected to nearly two thousand years of oppression,suppression and genocide.

not there they weren't technically that would be in egypt. and besides the jews weren't expelled entirely from the area there were still jews living after roman times. They didn't escape over the red sea but over the reed sea not into Palestine but into Jordan.

Your verison of events isn't matching up to history...

However, what happened to the Palestinians was wrong and something that needs compensating for but with money and help not the rubbish about single state solutions which would just end up in a total bloodbath.

Palestinians don't want money. they could have had money ages ago. It's not about accusition of wealth. it's about regaining what was stolen from them. do you think that those who had paintings stolen from them in the second world war or gold or assets should simply be told you can't have the painting but here's some cash? would that be equitable?

Anyway this thread says volumes not about the subject but on the general level of hatred and shortsighted dogmatism that exists in U75 p and p.

i think it says yet again that you have failed to research your facts and are willing to excuse all manner of systematic genocide in order to maintain your flying spagitti monester cult ideals...

 

[cantsin]

Because you were seriously thinking about about voting for them before weren't you?


Good luck with the trolling.

well said - he's just a dull troll , end of , no better than det boy

 

[poster342002]

and they are militarised, and have to fight all the time because they are thieves.

ALL of them? This is the silly thing - the left makes no distinction between the ruling class and the ordinary masses when it comes to Israel.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

ALL of them? This is the silly thing - the left makes no distinction between the ruling class and the ordinary masses when it comes to Israel.

what like calling an entire group of people with widely differing opinions thoughts ideas actions phliosphies and motivations the 'left'...

as me mum would say engauge brain before opening mouth

 

[KeyboardJockey]

ALL of them? This is the silly thing - the left makes no distinction between the ruling class and the ordinary masses when it comes to Israel.

Spot on. The reports I'm getting is that militarisation is adversely affecting the nations economy and that economic divisions are getting worse and worse. I'm hearing that in some towns the economic situation is exacerbating situations already made uneasy by the actions of Palestinian terrorists.

If things are not done to ease the situation then both the Israelis and the Palestinians will go down the pan together.

Its good to see a sensible balanced post on the subject rather than the usual truckload of anti israel rants, people screaming 'thieves', and the ever increasing volume of personal attacks on those who are either pro the existence of Israel or who are neutral.

Lets look to the future and disregard as I'm going to do the rantings and ravings of the sectarians, trot worshippers and others who are not helpful on here and elsewhere.

 

[Spion]

ALL of them? This is the silly thing - the left makes no distinction between the ruling class and the ordinary masses when it comes to Israel.

You don't know what you're talking about

Of course one can make the distinction, and 'the left' here should attempt to solidarise with the jewish working class on economic issues, and in the longer term should appeal to them to, for eg, not deliver supplies to the IDF, or building supplies to settlements, the wall etc. Another example would be the blockade of Gaza now - the Jewish working class should be breaking the blockade and delivering food and medicine to the Palestinians there. That's the one way the w/c in Israel can say 'look we are not your enemies, we don't agree you should be kept in a squalid prison, we can live together'

Sadly tho, the overwhelming majority of the working class in Israel idenitifies with the ruling class's project to keep the Palestinians dispossesed. Its trade union federation, the Histadrut, has never said a single word to solidarise with Palestinians

 

[nino_savatte]

trot worshippers

What's one of them, when it's at home?

 

[poster342002]

You don't know what you're talking about

Of course one can make the distinction, and 'the left' here should attempt to solidarise with the jewish working class on economic issues, and in the longer term should appeal to them to, for eg, not deliver supplies to the IDF, or building supplies to settlements, the wall etc. Another example would be the blockade of Gaza now - the Jewish working class should be breaking the blockade and delivering food and medicine to the Palestinians there. That's the one way the w/c in Israel can say 'look we are not your enemies, we don't agree you should be kept in a squalid prison, we can live together'

Sadly tho, the overwhelming majority of the working class in Israel idenitifies with the ruling class's project to keep the Palestinians dispossesed. Its trade union federation, the Histadrut, has never said a single word to solidarise with Palestinians

Israel is hardly alone in that the prevailing ideas among the working classes and the masses are those of the ruling class. You can find that right across the gobe. You might as well write off the whole global working classes if you use the methodology you apply to Israal's.

 

[Spion]

You might as well write off the whole global working classes if you use the methodology you apply to Israal's.

My methodology is to suggest practical points of action that can help separate the w/c from the interests of the r/c. If you think that is 'writing them off' you're a fucking idiot. You've got a nerve accusing me of writing off the w/c given your history of constant miserable whinging

 

[poster342002]

My methodology is to suggest practical points of action that can help separate the w/c from the interests of the r/c.

Except a lot of the left seems to view this as being uniquely impossible or unlikely in Israel's case (to the point where I get the feeling they'd rather it wasn't possible) - preffering instead to cavort and frolic with class-ignoring Palestinian nationalism (some of it very reactionary)

The ONLY hope that will ever come about in that region is if there's a greater identifaction among Israeli and Palestinian working classes of their shared interests. There are no shortcuts that won't set the region up for even bigger woes in the future.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

still not defining the left then ... thus making all your ocmments utter without focus... might as well be saying people...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The ONLY hope that will ever come about in that region is if there's a greater identifaction among Israeli and Palestinian working classes of their shared interests. There are no shortcuts that won't set the region up for even bigger woes in the future.

There is a lot of work being done by moderates on both sides to get people talking and these are the projects that should be supported.

 

[Spion]

Except a lot of the left seems to view this as being uniquely impossible or unlikely in Israel's case

Why don't you argue with posters here instead of your imaginary left? It makes you look look ignorant or lazy, tbh

The ONLY hope that will ever come about in that region is if there's a greater identifaction among Israeli and Palestinian working classes of their shared interests.

Which is precisely what my suggestions are aimed at, don't you agree?

Don't you think jewish workers should be breakng the blockade of Gaza, that they should be refusing to deliver building materials for settlements?

 

[Spion]

There is a lot of work being done by moderates on both sides to get people talking and these are the projects that should be supported.

Examples please

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The ONLY hope that will ever come about in that region is if there's a greater identifaction among Israeli and Palestinian working classes of their shared interests. There are no shortcuts that won't set the region up for even bigger woes in the future.

tell me what you know of Palestinian and Isreali working class groups...

and how they are currently not working together or identifying with their shared interests...

 

[poster342002]

There is a lot of work being done by moderates on both sides to get people talking and these are the projects that should be supported.

Indeed.

 

[poster342002]

Don't you think jewish workers should be breakng the blockade of Gaza, that they should be refusing to deliver building materials for settlements?

Yes, I do. But this will take the effort and time of reaching out to Israeli workers rather than yelling "viva Hamas viva Hezbollah" at them - which, oddly enough, is likely to have the opposite effect.

As I say, there is no shortcut answer to this tragedy via nationalism.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

tell me what you know of Palestinian and Isreali working class groups...

and how they are currently not working together or identifying with their shared interests...

ahem...

 

[poster342002]

ahem...

I'll engage with you when you adopt a more pleasant tone.

 

[Spion]

Yes, I do. But this will take the effort and time of reaching out to Israeli workers rather than yelling "viva Hamas viva Hezbollah" at them - which, oddly enough, is likely to have the opposite effect.

Well, I'm not saying that so it puzzles me why you mention it in a response to me. Do you so constantly need to grind your axe that you can't have a conversation with someone without bringing other issues in?

 

[poster342002]

Well, I'm not saying that so it puzzles me why you mention it in a response to me. Do you so constantly need to grind your axe that you can't have a conversation with someone without bringing other issues in?

Fair enough - but a lot of the left's attitude to the Israeli situation is so simplistic and bizarre that it often taints the movement as a whole.