Yet another reason to NOT vote Green
- Thread starter KeyboardJockey
- Start date
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
where as your opinions show us all you know nothing of the subject whatsoever but again this hasn't stopped you proffering you next to usless opinion like some airate windbag once again...
perhaps you poster(numbers) durritti and the rest of the nutjob loons might be better posting else where... you know where the mutal ego stroke can conitue with pictures of mena with big beards...
and putting not at the end of any sentence is like sooo 1984 i mean are you 5? why not say bodacious after every thing too...
cockneyrebel
New Member
What has the first question got to do with agreeing with boycotting apartheid states? (but the answer is not very well at all in terms of the governments)
And in terms of the second question even a CIA report recognised that Arabs are second class citizens in Israel. And that's leaving aside the fact that in the occupied territories they are left in bantistans with no freedom of movement and no way to even leave.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Given that I haven't even posted on this thread, it looks like your ... errrr ... "cross threading".
I think you need to calm down a bit.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Well a lot of the countries that the Palestinians were living in don't have such things as 'elections'. Arabs who have Israeli citizenship do have the right to vote in elections for the knesset.
To return to the thread (and to ignore for a moment the every increasing volume of insults that are directed at anyone who dares voice alternative views) what I object to re the Greens new policy (and no I wasn't intending to vote Green as I don't trust them but I get on fine with indivudual Green members and supporters) is that it is the equivilant of pouring petrol on a bonfire.
It alienates moderate Israelis and strengthens the hands of fundamentalist religious loons such as Shlomo Benizri http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/21/wgays121.xml.
The sight of crowds of left / green groups queuing up to denounce Israel, joining up with lunatice Islamist groups a la SWP, unecessary and disgusting chants of 'zionazi' etc etc isn't going to do jack shit for those who call for moderation. It also feeds those Palestinian polticos who hold power over their people by empasising their 'victimhood'.
I'm hearing some horrible tales of how moderates are being treated. In fact I recently met a Palestinian man who had come to the UK for reasons of safety as he was being hounded by extremists over his moderate stance and desire for the killing to stop.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Spion
I hear ya
Yeah, when people set up states by ethnically cleansing the existing population, when they continue to settle on that population's land and they make their lives increasingly intolerable, when they ghettoise those they drove out in utter squalor and blockade them we shouldn't oppose the state that does that should we?
No, we should just say, 'ooh, stop the killing'
You're fucking clueless on this, KJ. Fucking clueless.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
I think he did it for lurve.
No out of conviction.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Converted to Judaism recently and evidently has the zealotry that comes with the recently converted to any faith...
Oh, and he's pissed at greens generally because the LEZ thing means he can't drive his 2.25lt Landy around London without paying a huge price for it, and he's pissed about immigration and the UK generally.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Yeah, when people set up states by ethnically cleansing the existing population, when they continue to settle on that population's land and they make their lives increasingly intolerable, when they ghettoise those they drove out in utter squalor and blockade them we shouldn't oppose the state that does that should we?
No, we should just say, 'ooh, stop the killing'
You're fucking clueless on this, KJ. Fucking clueless.
We have a situation where the state of Israel EXISTS and is a legal state entity. There was to-ing and fro-ing of populations at the time of the recreation of the state of Israel and atrocities were committed by all sides. I also disagree with what is happening in the Occupied Territories and have spoken of it as being running sore that is causing further infections but I can also see why the Israelis desired a buffer to the East.
You might say I'm clueless but I have to speak out against groups that make situations worse whether they are the Greens as regards to the Middle East or the screaming loons of the SWP alienating people and driving them towards extremists.
If you want to see something that has earned the title clueless then it must be the whole politics boards of U75 which are sadly more about 'shut your mouth and look at how much I cleave to my dogma' rather than debating the issues in a sensible and balanced way.
Spion
I hear ya
I've heard of converts to Islam in prison but not Judaism? Oh well, you live and learn
Spion
I hear ya
It may exist but it's adherence to anything like legality is questionable in the extreme, with unfulfulled UN resolutions dating back to 1949 which include calling for the refugees to be allowed to return. Such ignoring of UN resolutions would have got many another country bombed by the US long ago.
And TBH talking about legality when there is a clear injustice being suffered by millions that is unresolved is the real dogma here.
How many jewish settlements were ethnically cleansed? Answer = 0
How many jews expelled from the state? Answer = 0
How many Arab villages were cleared? Answer = more than 500
How many Arabs expelled at the point of a gun or after massacres? Answer = around 750,000
How many Arab villages' populations were massacred? Answer = about 20
To say 'atrocities were committed by all sides' ignores the yearslong planning of the Zionists to expel the Arab population and set up an exclusively Jewish state. There was no such parallel desire by the Arabs
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Sadly, have to agree. And, increasingly, it's about how well someone can "win" an argument by calling people names and hurling abuse around.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
and have to pay full taxes yet strangely despite all of this don't have full rights as nonarab isreali citizens do.
you are neither being insulted nor is the heat you are getting due to your alternative view point. But because you are incredibly biased and your comments are inaccurate, foolish. It would appear that your new found faith has prompted you to accept more than just a methodology for living ones life and has also imparted a political standpoint which is as untennable as it is inaccurate. This is the reason people are genioursly supplying for your commentary, it could be that they are being overly generious...however most people are prepared to give the benifit of the doubt.
does it bollocks i know of literally hundreds of moderate isrealis and concseinous objectors who are fighting tooth and nail to recover isreal and it's lost ways.
Your assumption is that because there are nutbags out there such as Benizri that the normal run of the mill Labour party, Kamida or any other party in the Knessett are more moderate or less blood thristy. Which isn't true. there are in effect no left wing mainstream parties in isreal only right wing parties with more or less involvement the military who have vested interests in maintaining and expanded the status quo.
You only have to look at the removeal of settlements in Gaza to see the smoke and mirrors in place. As the settlers were removed from Gaza, more were being bused in daily into the illegal settlements in the west bank some 3 or 4 times as many as were being pulled out of Gaza. This action was in direct conflict with the UN resolution to stop occupying the land the UN resolution to cease building further settlements or expanding them and in direct conflict with the Geneva convention which prevents an occuping force from building inside the occupied (or more importantly contested) land.
even when the Knessette claimed to have stopped building in the west bank and said they wouldn't be further developments the work on Mala adumim continued however the Knessett stated that this was a part of Jeruslam and didn't count as it was municipal building within the city ... which would be like saying that building a new town in Luton is simply municpal building in London...
So the actions taken aren't moderate. They are extreme. They continue to defy International law and basic human rights. Isrealis fighting against this are regularlly jailed and i have no fear that any of them at any time soon will ever consider that actions against the Isreali state be it protest boycotted DA or whatever will put them off.
It might become more distasteful for people such as yourself who considers themselves not to be rabidly Pro Isreal but is looking for a peaceable soultion when you then beleive the rubbish which you are being told is the truth and for your own reasons have ceased to question or dispute the nonsense you are being spoonfed.
Are you for real?
Do you think there's a palestinian alive today who isn't fundamentally aware of their status in Isreals eyes or is some how blind to the every day realities. Emphasising their victim hood... that's as offencive as saying jews are emphasising their victimhood on holocaust memorial day...
What is it you don't get?
when pushed to it people will do exptremist things. The daily grind for most palestinians is extreme they are treated worse than battery hens most of the time. They don't need magical voodoo clerics to bewitch them into saying enough that's being done by the situation of seeing family friends sons daughters husbands wives killed imprisioned or both daily. For doing nothing other than trying to exist.
If you started systemacically wiping out the Jews from stamford hill and sent in kids in riot cop uniforms with big guns to indimidate them on a daily basis there'd be uproar. both from the jewish community and from the world at large. not only that but their'd be relatilation from the Jews against the riot cops. yet this is the situation in palestine today. and you think it needs nut job wacky muftis to tell them how bad it is like before that they didn't know.
rubbish. i can see that that would be the reason they might give, particularlly if they were talking with you about it. already reasling what bullshit you have swallowed and how argueing with people on a personal level isn't worth it... you heard what you wanted to hear. hey at least your prejudices were confirmed...
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
I don't think it is practical to have refugees return to Israel that would just cause people to move towards extremeists in Israel. What would you do if the govt said 'fuck off out of the house you have lived in for 60years we need to house some Kosovans' the tendency would be for you to support some form of nutter.
I think that what is needed is a way of cutting the ground from under the feet of the extremists in both Israel and Palestine. This could be done by removing the more abusive settlements and settlers like the nutters in Hebron for instance that would show good faith on Israels part. Also there needs to be a meaningful financial compensation package to those who were displaced and their direct descendants of at least £150k each, plus investment in infrastructure and cross community / cross nation projects and building an industrial network which can help to raise the living standards of the Palestinian people. When people have full bellies they are less likely to support extremists.
I didn't deny that there is an injustice just the methods of dealing with the injustice.
There were many Jews expelled from neighbouring Islamic states so there is a correlation in suffering. People did have to arm themselves to protect their families from Arab attack.
I don't deny that such an idea may have been discussed but then all sorts of ideas are discussed which never come to pass.
Bullshit. The neighbouring Arab nations tried to strangle the state of Israel at birth.
Spion
I hear ya
That's a bizarre example. I don't live in Kosovo in a house previously occupied by Kosovans. Unlike Israelis, who DO live in houses and on land lived in by Palestinians
As you know, i am for a settlement based on return and compensation. Whatever it takes to right the injustice that has been done
Those expulsions were a response to the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. I don't condone them but that's what they were. They were a misguided political and popular response to a massive episode of ethnic cleansing.
The trouble with that statement is that the Zionists' ideas of transferring the Arabs from palestine were discussed - and are on the historical record for years, decades before 1948 - AND DID COME TO PASS.
“We must expropriate gently . . . We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country . . . Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” (p41, The complete diaries of Theodor Herzl, I, 88)
“The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war.” Ben Gurion, diary, 12 July 1937
“If the Arabs leave it, the country will become wide and spacious for us . . . The only solution is a land of Israel, at least a western land of Israel, without Arabs. There is no room here for compromises . . . There is no way but to transfer all the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer them all, save perhaps for Bethlehem, Nazareth and old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one tribe. The transfer must be directed at Iraq, Syria and even Transjordan. For this goal funds will be found . . . And only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb millions of our brothers and the Jewish problem will cease to exist. There is no other solution.” 20 Dec 1940. Weitz (leading member of the JA’s Transfer Committee 1937-38), My diary, II, 181
But they had not had a plan to for years, like the Zionists had. The decision to invade (in which 3 of the 5 armies did not go further than the Arab zone) was a reactive one to a massive humanitarian disaster brought about by ethnic cleansing just across the Arab states' borders
Stop swallowing the propaganda, KJ
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
In countries like Iraq, this happened with the connivance of the British authorities. It was Britain's intention to sweep all the Jews of the region into Palestine against their wishes.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
sorry into where again exactly? into palestine did you say?
rubbish utter rubbish. I accept that there are difficulties with right of return however that's not the fault of the people kicked out or their responsiblity these lay firmly at the feet of the Knessett to resolve, the Palestinians are the innocent parties in all of this they neither insigated the war or indeed invited the world to dump a load of refugees that balfour didn't want in Europe on them.
It might be a start excpet that there have been contested issues in hebron from before there was an Isreal over which bits were owned by arab and jew alike. Again you show little knowledge of the problems in Isreal to pick this of all the places to start with.
Jaffa would both be more appropreate and less contraversal (but of course have a greater economic impact on Isreal)
What is it you are not geting they have been offered money several times for their land. What in essence is being said every time this insulting suggestion is put forward is we know we kicked out of your home without your possestions and that we forced you and your families and freinds away at gun point but here we're not all bad here's a Token rate we're preparred to pay to 'buy' the house off you, to legitimise our actions.
Nothing doing.
This should be done as part of any resolution until there is equitablity of oppertunity then this would need to continue. Do you think that Isrealis would be preparred to pay higher taxes for say a minimum of 25 years to reestablish the palestinian state (the reality is it would take 50 to 100 years to bring about that Equality).
yet Sharron got back in how many times... how empty were isreali bellies?
You simply don't get it because you haven't seen it and are beleiving what you are told by unbiased sources it's not the inequality of oppertunity which causes the problems or the descsion to blow themselves up launch rockets or attack it's simply that they have been stripped of all dignity to the point where their is nothing left no hope no future surronded by death destruction and disease this is what makes them extreme, they are fighting for their very lives.
really name them please both the states the displacement of over half a million jews from arab states which was done at gun point and which caused systematic ethnic cleansing... facts and figures money where your mouth is time...
again another bill bullshit lie the arab nations asked isreal at birth if they would mind stopping the extra judical killing of over 150,000 of their newly accuried citizens for months before saying fuck this shit we're going in.
if Isreal hadn't started killing the indiginious peoples of the area who they were charged with protecting then they wouldn't have gotten the reaction they did...
rose tinted specticals and historical ignorance aren't excuses for peddling this outright lie.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
The moral of the story is that the M.E. is a mess and has been so for a long time - laregly as a result of the major world powers re-arranging it for their own interests. None of which will be helped by saying this or that country within it should be disbanded.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
good for you except no ones saying that.
I would greatl appreciate it if oyu didn't involve yourself in ME forums as you do in all other forums. Pussing all over threads without any context content or value thanks muchly.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Agreed.
The Jews had a right to return to the land that they had been forcibly removed from (and had always had a presence in) by the Romans and then subjected to nearly two thousand years of oppression,suppression and genocide.
However, what happened to the Palestinians was wrong and something that needs compensating for but with money and help not the rubbish about single state solutions which would just end up in a total bloodbath.
Anyway this thread says volumes not about the subject but on the general level of hatred and shortsighted dogmatism that exists in U75 p and p.
Spion
I hear ya
Have a minimum respect for yourself and others and at least try and find something out about the subject instead of revealing your colossal ignorance once again
Spion
I hear ya
Too right it does
Spion
I hear ya
What, when they left 2,000 years ago? And the inhabitants of 60 years ago do not have the same right. You're fucking twisted
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
And the indigenous peoples who were forcibly removed from their land by the Zionists? What about their historic rights to the land?
"Hatred and shortsighted dogmatism"? Get a grip, baby.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Tell you what - from now on I'll first PM you before I post on any forum asking for permission.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
And which govts kept them in refugee camps instead of integrating them? It certainly wasn't the Israeli govts it was the Arab govts who needed something they could bash Israel with and being able to point at 'those poor oppressed Palestinians all locked up in camps' fitted the bill perfectly.
I think with the history of Palestinian terrorism over the years I don't think that return is an acceptable option for Israel.
Israel has made some terrible terrible mistakes over the years but so have the Palestinians voting for Hamas for example.
Two wrongs don't make a right. But it is time to compensate the Palestinians look at this way its cheaper than war.
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