Y A-B - "the right has crushed the left"

[KeyboardJockey]

The Labour party had signalled their intention to set up a nationwide system of comprehensive education prior to the 1964 General Election. They won that election with that promise to the fore of their published manifesto. The Crosland Circular setting up nationwide comprehnesives followed in 1965. The Labour party then won another General Election in 1966. That would suggest to me that there was no massive swing against Labour as a result of either the commitement to comprehensive education nor its application.

And oddly enough, far more comprehensives were set up under the tories than under labour - during a period in which both parties on and lost elections. Which would further suggest that the issue was not a paricularly hot one, at least not one that led to people crossing party lines in massive and election swinging numbers anyway.

I agree that the comp issue wasn't electorally divisive at the time but there is now a perception that comps or more specifically mixed ability teaching has contributed to a 'dumbing down' of education over the years and this has meant that the comp / grammar issue is now divisive.

There were other reasons why the working classes flocked to the tories in 79. If progressive forces want to beat the tories in the future they would do well to listen to the reasons why people have abandoned NL and are turning to the tories in disgust, and not just listen and nod the head but act on them as well.

 

[Stoat Boy]

So, where are your figures? Or will you admit to just making them up?

I dont recollect stating any figures, merely passing on what I had experienced personally in the reasoning behind why my labour supporting family switched to voting Conservative.

I am happy to stand by my assertion, based on this experience, that for many working class people the issue of comprehensive education has been one of the reasons why they switched their political alleigance and in doing so broke the power of the left.

Now from your posts I assume that you consider yourself left-wing so essentially the ball is in your court in terms of proving yourself correct as its not my side of the fence that has faced almost complete melt-down in terms of its influence. Dont get me wrong I loathe New Labour and all it stands for but since I dont vote 'left' I dont care.

 

[belboid]

What toss. Essentially, you admit you are full of shit. Excuse me if ignore your 'demands'

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I dont recollect stating any figures, merely passing on what I had experienced personally in the reasoning behind why my labour supporting family switched to voting Conservative.

I am happy to stand by my assertion, based on this experience, that for many working class people the issue of comprehensive education has been one of the reasons why they switched their political alleigance and in doing so broke the power of the left.

Now from your posts I assume that you consider yourself left-wing so essentially the ball is in your court in terms of proving yourself correct as its not my side of the fence that has faced almost complete melt-down in terms of its influence. Dont get me wrong I loathe New Labour and all it stands for but since I dont vote 'left' I dont care.

As I said before this may not have been an issue of division in the past but many working class parents want to see their children do well and when every school in an area is a shitpit it is enticing for these parents to see the grammar route as a way out of poverty and deprivation. Comps may not have been an issue in politics in the past but with a lot of comps being seen to be substandard and full of violent disruptive students its an easy issue for the tories to exploit.

 

[nightbreed]

So do you think that abolishing Grammer schools led to an increase in support for the left from the working classes ?

For me this thread shows why the left has lost a lot of support from those who historically not only supported it but also created it. I am not argueing about the rights and wrongs of the education system but just putting forward my own experience of seeing a family go from being staunch Labour to voting any one but with the abolishing of the grammer school system being just one of the reasons why because of the perception such a move gave allied with rank hypocrisy from those charged with implementing it.

The switch of a large section of the working class vote from Labour to the Conservatives in the 80's has been the crucial factor in determining British politics ever since. It forced Labour to abandon clause 4 and effectively isolated the British left from any hope of real power. Yes they voted in Blair and did so on two more occassions but I dont think any of you who proclaim yourself as left wing want to take any credit for that, especially in light of your own opposition to the Iraq and Afghan wars.

But I think that many of you on the left enjoy being on the side-lines. I think you take a perverse pleasure in being able to sneer at the majority. I think it elevates you amongst your peers and whilst you do love a tasty little internal conflict or two I reckon you still all see yourselves as some exclusive little freemasonry of those who are brighter and more intelligent than the rest of us subservient little proles. You know best and all that.

Not really answered the question have you SB.Have you any facts to back up your personal experience?

 

[Stoat Boy]

Not really answered the question have you SB.Have you any facts to back up your personal experience?

About as many as you lot who claim I am wrong.

And I understand that in the one part of the country to be offered a chance recently to adopt this wonderful comprehensive system it was rejected by a majority of 2-1.

 

[belboid]

'About' as many, ie, slightly less.

And so one tory area full of rich tossers (the last vote was in such an area in Kent) votes against abolishing Grammars is supposed to be evidence to back you up? Don't make me laugh. Even the tories have said they don't want any new grammars!

 

[KeyboardJockey]

'About' as many, ie, slightly less.

And so one tory area full of rich tossers (the last vote was in such an area in Kent) votes against abolishing Grammars is supposed to be evidence to back you up? Don't make me laugh. Even the tories have said they don't want any new grammars!

But just because there are failings in Grammar schools doesn't mean that comps have been an unalloyed success though does it?

I agree with comps but to make the system work you have to have setting and streaming but the streaming must take into account that different children have different strengths. I'd hate to see a return to my school days where I was denied the chance to learn Latin becuase I am shit at maths.

 

[Skimix]

I'd hate to see a return to my school days where I was denied the chance to learn Latin becuase I am shit at maths.

Believe me, you didn't miss much...all I can remember is a lot of men attacked a lot of things with spears...but then my latin teacher did put "While there's life there's hope" on my school report

 

[davgraham]

Believe me, you didn't miss much...all I can remember is a lot of men attacked a lot of things with spears...but then my latin teacher did put "While there's life there's hope" on my school report

'dum spiro, spero. . . ' actually [literally while I breathe, I hope]

gra

educated in an old fashioned grammar school, and then thanks to that nice Mr Wilson, full grant to go to uni.

. . . butchers has attempted to put a historical context to this dialogue of the deaf and the more interesting question is why the modern conservative party no longer argues for the 'return' of grammar schools - stoatboy's support for them is considerably misplaced. [clue the grammar no longer fits the modern economy where an educated working class is NOT required, merely one that behaviourally adapted and has its ambitions/ horizons foreshortened. Comp or grammar makes no difference here.]

As you were

 

[Red Dawn]

The Right has crushed the Left? yet she describes a Tory Party that has accepted and embraced a left-wing attitude towards Muslim, Asian and Blacks and has Muslim, Asian and black members. Surely , if the right had won, the Labour Party would be endorsing "White politics" and making it self more like the BNP?

 

[poster342002]

The Right has crushed the Left? yet she describes a Tory Party that has accepted and embraced a left-wing attitude towards Muslim, Asian and Blacks and has Muslim, Asian and black members. Surely , if the right had won, the Labour Party would be endorsing "White politics" and making it self more like the BNP?

The main parties are embracing the ass-pirational middleclass members of the Muslim, Asian and black communities. However, the working class members of the Muslim, Asian, black, White, Oriental, Jewish - and and other groups you care to mention - communities are simply being shoved out of the equation altogether. We simply don't matter. After all - it's really our own fault for not trying hard enough to join the middle classes.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

This is my favourite bit...


" Almost more depressing is the sight of black and Asian Britons following the wind blowing the Tories to victory. Boris has recruited Afro Caribbean "leaders" who believe in physical chastisement and smart young Asians who deny the existence of racism and want an end to political correctness. The more old-fashioned Uncle Toms and their female equivalents are now expediently making themselves known to the Tories and right-wing think tanks."


LOL. I am surprised she has not labeled them Coconuts or similar. If there is one think that lefties hate is black people thinking for themselves and not just doing what their self appointed political masters tell them to do.

what? that's not so bad. She is correctly suggesting that if the tories recruit the middle class of racial minorities they are on to a winner.

Its not class: its talent, drive, chutzpah.

Its not race: it's what's inside you.

We live in meritocracy you know.

Well, in the last you are right - she is massively mistaken to somehow link the Labour Party with racial minorities and suggest black and asian Tories are uncle tom's, but then the women has always been a racist in my book.

 

[brasicritique]

?

The sad fact is that the right HAS totally triumphed over the last 30 years and the left is now a remote, small and totally irrleevant hobby for a handfull of people.

so far spot on post of the year i agree . what is funny about this thread is that so many of you seem unable to see how you are all mini YABs which is most amuesing

 

[brasicritique]

"our London"

the square mile

 

[brasicritique]

Grammar schools rescused some but condemned others. The tripartite system could have worked if there was a) more resources put into the sec moderns and the technical schools and b) there was a way of transferring between schools as some children mature at different rates.

The comp system suffered from an obsession with equality / social engineering at the expense of vigor. The comp system that I went through still had vestiges of the old system within it and I felt that I was given a much better grounding in learning how to learn than children have now.

I don't think the comprehensive system has been an unalloyed sucess but then neither is it a total disaster either. I'm glad the 11+ has gone though.

do they have grammer schools in china?

 

[brasicritique]

Seriously though, what do we propose? I would say something like; worker's power, social justice, mutual aid, democratic internationalism and freedom from state violence.

i would say this language has been so subverted by the governing elite that it is now seen as synoumous with the status quo-

one of the greatest and as yet undisscussed topics is why when things are getting so much worse for so many more has there been an impression that things are not as bad as they used to be- For example all this classless stuff in contrast to the lack of social mobility. Any suggesttions any one