Xenophobia and racism versus free speech

[Johnny Canuck3]

I have not demanded respect - I don't think you have read my posts at all try rereading. I dont think that white working people in the UK in general have much respect and I don't think people denuded of respect are very likely to give it to others. I get plenty of respect ,personally,so your comments ,again, are irrelevant here..

If you're saying that lower class white people in Britain and elsewhere aren't accorded much respect, I'll agree with you to the extent that all people, whatever colour, of 'lower' class tend not to receive respect.

I won't agree with you if you're saying that white working classes are somehow losing resect that is now being given in greater quantities to non white working people. If you're saying that one is going down at the expense of the other going up, then I'll argue that you're using the same argument used by white supremacists.

 

[fela fan]

I was talking to him, not you, and as it turns out, my assumptions were correct.

In that case why are you using so many 'ifs' in your very next post?

And these boards are public, if you're talking to just him, use the pm facility.

I piped up coz of my thailand connection and you yet again making assumptions that anyone living here should have servants.

Which ignores the fact that many many people here make ends meet by being drivers, maids, cooks, gardeners for individual families. Much as i too don't like the idea in its rawest form, it means more than reasonable work for many. Better than being forced to sell your body or be exploited by the evil factory owners.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

In that case why are you using so many 'ifs' in your very next post?

And these boards are public, if you're talking to just him, use the pm facility.

I piped up coz of my thailand connection and you yet again making assumptions that anyone living here should have servants.
.

But..... he has servants.

 

[nino_savatte]

If you're saying that lower class white people in Britain and elsewhere aren't accorded much respect, I'll agree with you to the extent that all people, whatever colour, of 'lower' class tend not to receive respect.

I won't agree with you if you're saying that white working classes are somehow losing resect that is now being given in greater quantities to non white working people. If you're saying that one is going down at the expense of the other going up, then I'll argue that you're using the same argument used by white supremacists.

Interesting...very interesting.

 

[fela fan]

But..... he has servants.

What point are you now trying to make? Since that is a valid question i asked it, but i know the answer: your assumptions were correct.

But no mate, that assumption was correct, not the other ones.

And anyway, that may be the english word for it, but here they have more respecful language for the woman that looks after the house.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

What point are you now trying to make? Since that is a valid question i asked it, but i know the answer: your assumptions were correct.

But no mate, that assumption was correct, not the other ones.

And anyway, that may be the english word for it, but here they have more respecful language for the woman that looks after the house.

But he said plural.

Who said anything about the woman who looks after the house?

 

[Engineer]

I employ one Woman who has the title ' Mi Baan' which is a direct translation of Housekeeper. Mu workplace also employs a driver for me - this is a legal neccessity - Iwould rather drive myself but if there is an accisent then as a foreigner I will be extorted for tens of thousands of pounds whether it is my fault or not.

You have been offensive from the start Mr Cannuck . With your 'kiss your white derrierre comments' and now trying to pin a white supremacist label on me.

White working people are loosing respect because the media and government have decided that white working people are an ideal scapegoat for societies ills. It is not a z.ero sum game -there is not a certain amount of respect to be shared out.

Your trying to fins a way to pin the label 'racist' on me shows that you are part fo the problem and not the solution.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I employ one Woman who has the title ' Mi Baan' which is a direct translation of Housekeeper. Mu workplace also employs a driver for me - this is a legal neccessity - Iwould rather drive myself but if there is an accisent then as a foreigner I will be extorted for tens of thousands of pounds whether it is my fault or not.

You have been offensive from the start Mr Cannuck . With your 'kiss your white derrierre comments' and now trying to pin a white supremacist label on me.

White working people are loosing respect because the media and government have decided that white working people are an ideal scapegoat for societies ills. It is not a z.ero sum game -there is not a certain amount of respect to be shared out.

Your trying to fins a way to pin the label 'racist' on me shows that you are part fo the problem and not the solution.

Don't jump to conclusions. I said that certain turns of phrase you use are similar to those used by supremacists. I accept that that could be a total coinicidence.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

White working people are loosing respect because the media and government have decided that white working people are an ideal scapegoat for societies ills. .

See, there you go again.

Thats similar to phrases used by supremacists.

Also; 'white working people are the ideal scapegoat for society's ills'.

What a load of racist bullshit.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I employ one Woman who has the title ' Mi Baan' which is a direct translation of Housekeeper. Mu workplace also employs a driver for me - this is a legal neccessity - Iwould rather drive myself but if there is an accisent then as a foreigner I will be extorted for tens of thousands of pounds whether it is my fault or not.

You have been offensive from the start Mr Cannuck . With your 'kiss your white derrierre comments' and now trying to pin a white supremacist label on me.

White working people are loosing respect because the media and government have decided that white working people are an ideal scapegoat for societies ills. It is not a z.ero sum game -there is not a certain amount of respect to be shared out.

Your trying to fins a way to pin the label 'racist' on me shows that you are part fo the problem and not the solution.

Please explain: how exactly is the white working class made into a scapegoat for society's ills?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

The one area where I will agree with engineer is that to some extent it seems that the white working class are a last bastion of acceptable things to bash. Look at all the threads about 'chavs', often full of hateful shit. And often by posters who are otherwise pretty right-on, rather than the usual 'Trolls from Y-Front'. Would a site called "Raghead Scum" by accepted in the way that "Chav Scum" is? I think not. Often middle class Guardian/INdependent columnists will display scathing prejudices towards 'the great unwashed' or 'white trash' in a way that they wouldn't dare towards disenfranchised non-white people.

 

[Engineer]

See, there you go again.

Thats similar to phrases used by supremacists.

Also; 'white working people are the ideal scapegoat for society's ills'.

What a load of racist bullshit.

racist to whom exactly ? my complaint is about the government and themedia -are they a Race ?

You have a very poor argument that is a well known fallacy -ie that if someone uses a 'tone of phrase' similar to someone else then one must therefore share their opinions.

are you against the war in Iraq ? if yes then you are a white supremacist because the BNP are
are you against Zionism -then you are a white supremacist because the BNP are.
Against globalisation -the BNP are
against GM foods -the BNP are
believe in public service before corporate profit ? the BNP says so

Attacks on white working people -whether it's the SWP shouting racist at us -the Guardian libelling us as chavs or neds (we know who the real trouble makers are -WE have to live with them,or in my case used to have to) or people like you ,Johnny Canuck who see any grievance held by people who actually do the majority of teh labour in the UK as wgite supremacist.

in no way does our grievance hold anything against the treatment that black people -fellow working class people on the whole -have also suffered-its a typical divide and rule tactic, in my dads time it was the company owners who wanted to divide and rule us now its the Guardian readers who try and keep us apart and at each others throats -their tactics work very well indeed.
its very easy to split a people -favour one and condemn the other -gets them hating very quickly.

you are an agent of racism not me

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Attacks on white working people -whether it's the SWP shouting racist at us -the Guardian libelling us as chavs or neds (we know who the real trouble makers are -WE have to live with them,or in my case used to have to) or people like you ,Johnny Canuck who see any grievance held by people who actually do the majority of teh labour in the UK as wgite supremacist.

Some of you are racist.

Chavs or neds; doesn't apply to all white people, and surely it's no more derogatory than whatever it is you call black people: I don't know what your british terms are: yardie, or streetcorner crack dealer, or who knows what. Why should white subgroups not come under similar scrutiny or even derision?

What grievances do the 'people who actually do the majority of the labour in the UK' have, friend?

Fact is, this is just a bulletin board, and nothing will be settled here, but I get a bad feeling from you, dear poster. I think you're a racist, you with your hard done by white majority, your real, actual people who are really doing the work in the UK, those downtrodden whites who are denied their respect and who are now lashing out only in reaction to their own ill treatment.

Reading comments from people like you helps to explain to me, how european parties like the BNP or Le Pen's party in France can actually get members elected. Say what you will about North America, but even we won't elect mouthbreathing, drooling racist parties to our national assemblies. Perhaps it's because that culture of superiority is on the wane here, and not on the rise as it is in Europe.

 

[Engineer]

'what we call black people'

I call the nearest Black person to me 'Gary'.

With no evidence at all you have accused me of being a white supremacist. I think you are a Middle class tosser with a superiority complex. You probably think that having a degree in 'liberal arts' (ie done fuck all for 4 years) enables you to make massive comments about who is or who is not racist.

Chav and Ned only applies to white working class people whose taste in clothes doesn't extend to Laura Ashley or Huntsman of Saville Row.Guardian reading tossers like to refer to all working people like that.

My guess is that you have never grafted in your entire life. I guess you are a useless parasite who lives of the backs of others. You are just another divide and rule exploter who wants a nice 'job'telling us peasants what to do.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

'what we call black people'

I call the nearest Black person to me 'Gary'.

With no evidence at all you have accused me of being a white supremacist. I think you are a Middle class tosser with a superiority complex. You probably think that having a degree in 'liberal arts' (ie done fuck all for 4 years) enables you to make massive comments about who is or who is not racist.

Chav and Ned only applies to white working class people whose taste in clothes doesn't extend to Laura Ashley or Huntsman of Saville Row.Guardian reading tossers like to refer to all working people like that.

My guess is that you have never grafted in your entire life. I guess you are a useless parasite who lives of the backs of others. You are just another divide and rule exploter who wants a nice 'job'telling us peasants what to do.

What a laugh.

I know you science people look down your noses at liberal arts degrees, but mine isn't one, or at least my second one, the one that got me a job.

My calling you a racist has nothing to do with where I went to university or what I took. It has to do with the things you say and how you say them, love.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Do you consider the thai people around you to be 'black', and is one of them named Gary?

 

[Engineer]

No Gary is a Fellow engineer from London- I call him Black because he is Black I call him Gary because his name is Gary if thats a little difficult to understand Ill try and explain it further.

Thai people are rarely black although there are a few who are half American from the Vietnam war who could be described as such.Thai skin colour ranges from very pale (especially chinese Thais) to Dark Brown with every shade in between. Thai society is extremely racist and white skins are prized and dark skins despised. Skin lighteners are big sellers.

Thai people are ,to my knowledge (please correct me if wrong Fela)very raely called Gary. Thai people are generally called Somchai,Srimazee,sumchat or if you are very lucky Tittiporn they also have nicknames like Nor,lek,A,Nok or Som.
I hope that is helpfull to you for your essay on why all Europeans are closet Fascist and when Yanks are the superior race.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

No Gary is a Fellow engineer from London- I call him Black because he is Black I call him Gary because his name is Gary if thats a little difficult to understand Ill try and explain it further.

Thai people are rarely black although there are a few who are half American from the Vietnam war who could be described as such.Thai skin colour ranges from very pale (especially chinese Thais) to Dark Brown with every shade in between. Thai society is extremely racist and white skins are prized and dark skins despised. Skin lighteners are big sellers.

Thai people are ,to my knowledge (please correct me if wrong Fela)very raely called Gary. Thai people are generally called Somchai,Srimazee,sumchat or if you are very lucky Tittiporn they also have nicknames like Nor,lek,A,Nok or Som.
I hope that is helpfull to you for your essay on why all Europeans are closet Fascist and when Yanks are the superior race.

http://www.texastwirler.com/tiger.JPG

 

[Engineer]

Tiger woods could quite easily pass for a Thai if he didn't speak

 

[Engineer]

You sure are posting late for a North American it must be 5 in the morning for you.

Still if you have no work to go to why not stay up all night then sleep till two in the afternoon when your 'buddies' call round to smoke 'some weed maaan'
maybe 'a few beers' .

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The one area where I will agree with engineer is that to some extent it seems that the white working class are a last bastion of acceptable things to bash. Look at all the threads about 'chavs', often full of hateful shit. And often by posters who are otherwise pretty right-on, rather than the usual 'Trolls from Y-Front'. Would a site called "Raghead Scum" by accepted in the way that "Chav Scum" is? I think not. Often middle class Guardian/INdependent columnists will display scathing prejudices towards 'the great unwashed' or 'white trash' in a way that they wouldn't dare towards disenfranchised non-white people.

It's true that there is a lot of bashing of the white working class but they're certainly not the only people to get bashed. It's just that people use different stereotypes to bash different groups. There are some people who are sensitive to racism who seem less sensitive to discrimination based on social class, but to be honest in the main people seem quite happy with prejudice against anyone a bit different - they'll forward jokes about chavs as well as complaining about immigrants and mad Muslims.

 

[spring-peeper]

You sure are posting late for a North American it must be 5 in the morning for you.

Still if you have no work to go to why not stay up all night then sleep till two in the afternoon when your 'buddies' call round to smoke 'some weed maaan'
maybe 'a few beers' .

Canada has seven time zones - are you sure you got the right one?

 

[nino_savatte]

'what we call black people'

I call the nearest Black person to me 'Gary'.

With no evidence at all you have accused me of being a white supremacist. I think you are a Middle class tosser with a superiority complex. You probably think that having a degree in 'liberal arts' (ie done fuck all for 4 years) enables you to make massive comments about who is or who is not racist.

Chav and Ned only applies to white working class people whose taste in clothes doesn't extend to Laura Ashley or Huntsman of Saville Row.Guardian reading tossers like to refer to all working people like that.

My guess is that you have never grafted in your entire life. I guess you are a useless parasite who lives of the backs of others. You are just another divide and rule exploter who wants a nice 'job'telling us peasants what to do.

He doesn't have a degree in the "liberal arts" or that's what he claims...and he has claimed to be many things including lawyer.

 

[Ing_soc]

If you're saying that lower class white people in Britain and elsewhere aren't accorded much respect, I'll agree with you to the extent that all people, whatever colour, of 'lower' class tend not to receive respect.

I won't agree with you if you're saying that white working classes are somehow losing resect that is now being given in greater quantities to non white working people. If you're saying that one is going down at the expense of the other going up, then I'll argue that you're using the same argument used by white supremacists.

this is interesting. while i agree that most working people are given less respect than others, i find that within ethnic minorities in this country, there can be a degree of mutual respect shared by people within that minority, regardless of class. admittedly this is not always true, but i would say in my experience that the commonality shared by people of the same ethnic minority (in a white majority community) means that they (working ethnic minorities) are able to receive a greater degree of respect from m/c EMs than say, white working people from white m/c.

this could be because the white m/c as majority, feel they have nothing in common with white w/c, unlike ethnic minority m/c and w/c.

also i do think that white working class are dumped on in the mainstream media (see 'chavs' for eg) altho not as much as asylum seekers...

edited to add: have jst seen renegadedog's post and agree totally

 

[Ing_soc]

having now read the whole thread, i would now like to say that johnny c u appear to have it totally wrong mate. there are plenty of racist twats on here, why go around accusing one person who's been saying plenty of intelligent things?

as i have always argued, the 'go around calling everyone a racist' strategy is one reason why so many real racists get the time and attention they don't deserve. and here we go back to the point of the thread....

one of the problems with the whole free speech debate is that it often assumes that those with the racist/fascist agenda are on the same playing field. they're not. i don't want to always draw parallels with Nazi Germany, but the reason the Nazis gained power was partly through cleverly playing on the underlying racism of ordinary german people (blaming jews etc as scapegoats for all society's ills - asylum seekers anyone?), playing on the power hunger of the middle and upper classes (along with the racism etc, much more acceptable in 1930s society) in their speech and actions , whilst simultaneously scaring the shit out of anyone to disagree with them by sending armed thugs out onto the streets to intimidate and attack people. its not like Hitler's party was unopposed ideologically in the Weimar republic, the opposition just lost.

similarly with modern fascism. they don't play by the same rules. it's all very well saying that the truth will out etc and that anti-racists/fash can win a reasoned argument, but reasoned argument doesn't necessarily come into the emotive fear-playing language of the far-right. and the supposedly reformed and modern face of the suited BNP is still intimately connected with the violent fascist movement that still exists within this and other countries.

on the other hand, this doesn't mean i think the state should intervene in most cases, as i think this is perhaps more problematic....

 

[Engineer]

Canada has seven time zones - are you sure you got the right one?

yes goodpoint 6 actually

it might have been only 2.0 in the morning or possibly as late as 5.30
newfoundland time doesn't change much though.

 

[error]

anglo-saxons are a violent people, and that comes out in their use of language. You can see it any day right here on urban!

Dude, that was RACIST!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You sure are posting late for a North American it must be 5 in the morning for you.

Still if you have no work to go to why not stay up all night then sleep till two in the afternoon when your 'buddies' call round to smoke 'some weed maaan'
maybe 'a few beers' .

I thought engineers could add and subtract. It was 2 am when I made that post. Late, but not excessively so.

We're not in the habit of partaking in spliffs round the office.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

having now read the whole thread, i would now like to say that johnny c u appear to have it totally wrong mate. there are plenty of racist twats on here, why go around accusing one person who's been saying plenty of intelligent things?

It's not my habit to do so, and to be honest, I think that there are very few actual racists posting on these boards. There are people one might wonder about, but even then, it's my habit to give them the benefit of the doubt.

It's also my habit to go with my gut feelings about people, and after reading this fellow's postings, that's the impression I get. It may well be wrong, I'll probably never know, but to me, his posts scream it out.

 

[Engineer]

I thought engineers could add and subtract. It was 2 am when I made that post. Late, but not excessively so.

We're not in the habit of partaking in spliffs round the office.

I thought 'lawyers' could read check 2 posts above this one.

you may think I am a racist I know you are a twat. You are the usual middle class superior wanker that just wants to be a commissar and conduct witchhunts.

I have said not one disparaging remark about any racial group and yet you manage to libel me on that you are also clearly an anti european -you know fuck all about us but manage to insult us all the same -the smug superior ones are you and the Yanks not us.

Tosser (and liar)