poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Fully agree. It should be in the dusbin of history, yet it continues. And continues ... and continues...
WWC boys, least likely to go to Uni of all school leavers.
- Thread starter treelover
- Start date
Fully agree. It should be in the dusbin of history, yet it continues. And continues ... and continues...
_angel_
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I've seen a fair few although I think it's something worse in London now. Tbh most of these adverts say degree or relevant experience.
Although I was a bit miffed to find supermarlet management trainees needing degrees (and recent ones- nice bit of attempted ageism!) whereas a few years ago some training schemes would have taken people with a few GCSEs (if that).
DownwardDog
Well-Known Member
What does this mean? I was a bright, working class lad (no longer any of those three things) and went to a comprehensive. I would say I got a distinctly average education and had to be almost entirely self-motivated but I wouldn't say I got shafted.
rioted
redundant
You're right, I see nothing valid in that OFSTED report, or in OFSTED as a whole. But my idea of social revolution is far more sophisticated than you imagine. Poverty, per se, is not the problem: I've worked with too many really poor achievers and have my own background to know that. It's not even relative poverty - anyone with experience of developing world education will tell you that even countries with a far larger gap between rich and poor have schools full of kids willing and keen to learn. The problem is government and OFSTED with their never-ending "target" culture and belief that what works with one kid will work with every kid. If a fraction of the 1 1/2 billion ££s that the government spent bullying kids into school was spent on carrots instead of sticks, in making schools more pleasant, more relevant, more fun, there might have been a reduction in truancy. There hasn't been. If I thought that the elimination of poverty was the only way forward I wouldn't have wasted the last 20 years of my life in schools, in inner-city schools, in failing schools. I don't think that throwing money at the problem, whether it be into schools or into poverty will improve the problem. But neither will it be solved by uniforms, micky-mouse qualifications, league tables, academies or any of the rest of the crap that government comes up with.
rioted
redundant
But you're not "the class" are you? I come from a poor w/c background: I achieved academically. But thinking that everyone can do it just as easily is tantamount to thinking that because some people can run a four minute mile, everyone can. Tebbit's father "got on his bike!"
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Tebbit's father "got on his bike!"
I somehow doubt that claim.
Nevertheless, many people did just that long before Tebbit uttered those words. Some went off to coastal towns looking for work in the holiday trade, as I did, then the tories made that difficult by not allowing people to be housed there, whilst at the same time deny any help out of season.
JHE
.
Any suggestions? Mine is: make it all voluntary.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no!
I have some sympathy, honestly I do. Perhaps one day, in an excellently egalitarian socialist future (long after we are dead, I suppose) it will be a good idea to make all formal education voluntary.
At the moment, though, the result of what you propose would be disastrous. Educational inequalities, already wide, would be greatly exacerbated. In general, the children of rich families and the children of middle class families would do OK, as they do now. Many of the children of working class families and in particular the children of the most impoverished families would have little or no schooling.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
What is it about London that it seems to adopt all the worst, most rigthwing business practises and has a total lack of resistance to them?
"Recent degress" now, is it!? WTF? Since when did academic qualifications have a an expiry or "use by" date? Oh, of course - since the employers said so. And their word is fucking law, after all. Why didn't I see this before?
_angel_
.
What is it about London that it seems to adopt all the worst, most rigthwing business practises and has a total lack of resistance to them?
"Recent degress" now, is it!? WTF? Since when did academic qualifiactiosn have a an expiry or "use by" date? Oh, of course - since the employers said so. And their word is fucking law, after all. Why didn't I see this before?
I don't think it's because my degree has theoretically expired. It's just that it's the kind of job they would have once advertised as 'for a school leaver' ie they want someone young and impressionable to mould.(And I daresay pay less)
Ageism by the back door.
You're right, I see nothing valid in that OFSTED report, or in OFSTED as a whole. But my idea of social revolution is far more sophisticated than you imagine. Poverty, per se, is not the problem: I've worked with too many really poor achievers and have my own background to know that. It's not even relative poverty - anyone with experience of developing world education will tell you that even countries with a far larger gap between rich and poor have schools full of kids willing and keen to learn. The problem is government and OFSTED with their never-ending "target" culture and belief that what works with one kid will work with every kid. If a fraction of the 1 1/2 billion ££s that the government spent bullying kids into school was spent on carrots instead of sticks, in making schools more pleasant, more relevant, more fun, there might have been a reduction in truancy. There hasn't been. If I thought that the elimination of poverty was the only way forward I wouldn't have wasted the last 20 years of my life in schools, in inner-city schools, in failing schools. I don't think that throwing money at the problem, whether it be into schools or into poverty will improve the problem. But neither will it be solved by uniforms, micky-mouse qualifications, league tables, academies or any of the rest of the crap that government comes up with.
But as far as I looked. That report wasn't about more targets, micky mouse qualifications and alike. It outlined some simple measures that improved the schooling atmosphere. Of course they're not a panacea. But having a school uniform policy, for example, and relevant, interesting education aren't meutrily exclusive. Regarding relevance, that's why I mentioned in my first post. Perhaps there should be a better system of giving pupils work experience in local businesses. Mentoring for pupils with particular aptitudes.
Perhaps worth pointing out again. I'm not endorsing the government's education policy or defending what looks like constant interferance. I'm just looking at it from the outside. you see it every day.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
Extensive studies into gender 'labelling' show that boys are presumed underachievers, troublemakers and general little gobshites much more than girls are, and for truly trivial reasons. Punishments meted out to lads in all establishments (not just shools) are harsher than for girls, and distributed more often (for identical 'offences').
Certain regimes enforced in school often give lads a far more restricted ability to show individuality. For example, uniform - teachers are far more likely to come down harshly on lads with long hair or who have in some way unusually adapted their uniform in a 'trendy' kinda way than they're likely to hoist girls up (though you do occasionally see the odd girl given a dressing down for having to short a skirt, or excessive makeup, etcetera...). There's also expectations from both staff and peers: I've personally seen lads told to stop snivelling after being beaten up. I've personally been in a situation where I've been told that I could expect to have the crap kicked out of me, as a result of my long hair (which the male staff in particular never ceased to give me grief over). None of these social pressures are taken into account, nor really understood by staff - the women not really being able to sympathise with boys experiences, and the men often ingrained in a culture of macho intolerance of any display of weakness. I think that this problem is only really shown as a microcosm of the real problem in the bigger picture; I don't think it's any coincidence that male suicide rates are three times higher than for girls - more than often, young lads of school/college age.
Lots of trivial institutional factors mete into the overrall effect - but I think that ultimately, girls find it instutionally easier to succeed in the current system, socially easier to succeed in the current system and emotionally easier to succeed in the current system than boys. Personal experience adds to my conclusions, too - I was expelled in year 9.
The difference between races is most pronounced among men from deprived households and suggests the emergence of an underclass of white working-class men who risk being locked out of higher education and marginalised over jobs.
this is a potential time bomb and in the long run probably a far recruitment boost thye would never get themselves
and those waffling on about getting skills and trades seem to forget that it is these sctors which are facing competition from the forces of globalisation like never before
Bill Rammell, the Universities Minister, said that more was needed to be done to raise aspirations among white males and their families. It was a cause of great concern, he said, that so many boys seemed to be switched off from education.
this bloke is a total an complete utter utter bastard. And those sawpies on here trying to absolve the radical left of any blame should be asking themselves some serious bloody questions - while i agree that the neo policeis have eroded what little participation in HE that there is to many people seem to forget that the left is a massivly influential intellectual force within education in terms of policy and i would say they have a problem with working class masculinity full stop and as such it is no suprise that things are the way they are.
this is a potential time bomb and in the long run probably a far recruitment boost thye would never get themselves
and those waffling on about getting skills and trades seem to forget that it is these sctors which are facing competition from the forces of globalisation like never before
Bill Rammell, the Universities Minister, said that more was needed to be done to raise aspirations among white males and their families. It was a cause of great concern, he said, that so many boys seemed to be switched off from education.
this bloke is a total an complete utter utter bastard. And those sawpies on here trying to absolve the radical left of any blame should be asking themselves some serious bloody questions - while i agree that the neo policeis have eroded what little participation in HE that there is to many people seem to forget that the left is a massivly influential intellectual force within education in terms of policy and i would say they have a problem with working class masculinity full stop and as such it is no suprise that things are the way they are.
_angel_
.
This is something not just confined to school.. the whole of society has it in for boys (but not men, curiously). Just looking at the slogans on boys clothing, manufacturers seem to be saying they're trainnee muggers
I think the reasons for boys suicides run a lot deeper than just school policy and things like that. What you said about receiving machoness from male teachers doesn't help particularly.
Re uniform, don't think anyone should have to wear it (we didn't at high school) but I'm not sure you can say that boys get treated worse. Some tales from girls at school (especially in 60s) about having their skirt hem lengths measured are pretty strict. I remember at middle school them telling us what colour knickers to wear for games, and yes, we had them inspected!!!
I wouldn't say girls find it 'easier to succeed emotionally' girls tend to channel their negativity in different ways to boys (generally less agressively, although that does seem to be changing)
stupid kid
...
I've got five mates who did degrees in Film and Broadcast Media. They finished last summer, one graduated with very unexpected a 2:1, one got a 2:2, one graduated without honours, and the other two didn't graduate. Of all five, only one is actually involved in the media, he's getting paid to train, and it was one of the ones who didn't graduate. Of the other four two are unemployed (one was too lazy to claim until we practically forced him, he hasn't even added his 2:1 to his CV he's so lazy lol) one lays paving slabs and one is training to be a teacher.
They all to a man, say that they'd have been better off not going to uni in the first place. Either because the opportunities they wanted were already available or just because it now doesn't seem worth the money and time.
something always bothers me about social mobility that no matter how many rise through education there will always be the people at the bottom .And with our education system geared to the needs of employers they can,t have fufiling life through the education that takes them through life
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