Written warning - sick note

[Guineveretoo]

They should do. Most unions, especially if they're aware of the culture in which their members operate, will help you out. I'm not aware of any unions that have a waiting period, that's not the point of joining one.

Put it this way, what have you got to lose by joining one? And what have you got to lose if you don't?

I am afraid that ALL unions have a policy of not representing people who join them with an existing problem. Otherwise, we would all go bust from lack of funds!

I know there are opportunities for this policy to be overturned, depending on the local Branch etc., but PCS within DWP is very well organised, and I find it extremely surprising that, after 3 years there, you didn't come across them in a positive light, rather than just the lying rubbish that you were told when you joined.

Simplistically, and I know this is repeating some of what has already been said, but please do join a union now, even if they can't/won't represent you immediately.

Also, be assured that, on the facts as presented in the first post, DWP have breached their own procedure, and you will win a grievance. But do make sure that, in your grievance letter, you are clear as to what it is you are complaining about, and what remedy you are seeking.

 

[Looby]

things have moved on since i was there but...

I used to be a union rep for the then CPSA.

what you are describing sounds very like a case I had towards the end of my time in the civil service where they started sickness monitoring and clamping down on MMI (minor illneses). (Mind you back then they told everyone that sickness would be looked at after 11 days which to me just said woo hoo 10 days short notice holiday)

anyhow

the purpose behind the warning used to be so that if you took more days off they could go down the ineficiency route. It was normally targeted at those who took say lots of fridays or mondays off so I would guess that you have been caught in a trap designed for others.

I would deffo speak to your union rep

Do all employers count weekends as sick days?

If I was ill from thursday to tuesday it would be 6 days sickness not 4 even though I don't work sat and sun.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I've only been at Jobcentre for 3 years. When I joined I was told that unions werent thought very highly of at DWP and advised 'of the record' that I shouldnt join one. Of course, being new, I didnt want to rock the boat.So I've no-one to represent me.

hmm. which party is in governement again?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I'm livid..I work in a jobcentre,and yeah its meant to be a 'caring' employer...bollocks!! i have had off 6 days sickness during the past year, and then unfortunatley got signed of by the doctor with tonsillitus for 5 days. I've now been told I'm to get a written warning, and I'm fuming!! I didnt think they could do this when I had a sick note, but evidently they're quite within their rights. I want to air my grievance and get it looked at again, although I doubt its going to do much good. I'm now only allowed to take 4 days sick over the next 6 month or they can sack me!! I feel really bad about this, any advice?

Hazyp

soon, you might find out about life over the other side of your desk....

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I mean the entire concept of sick note monitoring is racist and ageist. Probably sexist too.

 

[Looby]

hmm. which party is in governement again?

When we were voting for industrial action Nov 2004 our senior manager sent a blanket email to 400 staff telling us how he had no faith in the PCS anymore and although he can't stop us joining the strike we should consider the effect this may have on us as it is a breach of contract.
Cunt.

He left last week, a card was sent round and 6 advisors signed it and there was 2x 50ps in his collection.

 

[liberty]

No, there's only our attendance management which says no more than 9 days off per rolling year. I dont know whether to even bother appealing against it, doubt if I'm going to get it reviewed in my favour, and it could cause me problems with my line manager. But then again, maybe I should make a stand....

That is terrible.. Here I have just paid for someone to be off for 4 months which is also terrible

 

[Looby]

That is terrible.. Here I have just paid for someone to be off for 4 months which is also terrible

Were they genuinely ill?

 

[foggypane]

Think about it from a socio-economic/ethnic profile/medical condition and ill health perspective. To punish people for being ill is, demographically and epidemiologically, to punish them for being older and working class/non-white.

Arguable, but a strong position.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I may be somewhat out of date, but civil service disciplinary procedure always used to require TWO formal verbal warnings (i.e. not just the boss telling you off, but telling you off and informing you that the warning will be noted on your record) before a written warning could be issued.

Check your employment terms and/or the "jobcentre plus" disciplinary procedure.

If your boss has stepped out of line with regards to the correct procedure then file a complaint.

Oh, and the union thing? get in there!

 

[Pingu]

actually i wouldnt file a complaint

if they havnt followed their own disciplinary procedures and things get worse you have a nice case.

if you file a complaint now they have a chance to correct the error


depending on the situation though a verbal warning isnt always required.


they used to do "back to work" interviews when you returned from sick. these were actually counted as part of the disciplinry process although it was never clear that this was the case.

 

[jeff_leigh]

When we were voting for industrial action Nov 2004 our senior manager sent a blanket email to 400 staff telling us how he had no faith in the PCS anymore and although he can't stop us joining the strike we should consider the effect this may have on us as it is a breach of contract.
Cunt.

Before the last PCS strike a couple of weeks ago our senior manager sent out a similar email explaining the only people it would hurt would be the general public, he's all heart i tell ya

 

[hazyp]

soon, you might find out about life over the other side of your desk....

Guinessdrinker,

i know about life on the other side of the desk...in fact I always make sure if someone is due their money that they get it...on the day its due, and this has also got me into trouble, as i've been told I'm on the side of the Jobseekers and not the department. But I dont care, people are due their money, need their money, and who the hell are the DWP to keep them from getting it, or make to make them wait longer for it...if theyre due the money then bloody well pay them.

I have people who come to me and only want to deal with me because I am fair and I help them....but now I've been told that I'm too soft. Soft...shit I am....I am there to help people and thats what I will keep on doing.

 

[jeff_leigh]

This is the lot that sacked a bloke for not wearing a tie ffs.

Dopes.

Come the revolution brothers and sisters

different offices have diffent dress policies, but in our office making a bloke wear a tie would be tantamount to sex discimination, i go to the office in polo shirts and no one say anything

 

[Markyd]

I may be somewhat out of date, but civil service disciplinary procedure always used to require TWO formal verbal warnings

All civil service departments have different procedures now. usuallly very similar but different

 

[Markyd]

different offices have diffent dress policies, but in our office making a bloke wear a tie would be tantamount to sex discimination, i go to the office in polo shirts and no one say anything

Which is right!

On appeal they were forced to re-instate him.

DWP managed by numpties IME

 

[hazyp]

Well, when I got to work today...Lo and behold there was my warning letter awaiting me on my desk. Thing is, I was already prepared, and having been up all night worrying about my problem, my letter was written and in an envelope. I went to my line manager and gave it to her, and just said 'I'm appealing against your letter'. She made no comment and although I saw her photocopying it, she has made no mention of it all day and no acknowledgement that it has been passed to management higher up.

 

[Markyd]

Well, when I got to work today...Lo and behold there was my warning letter awaiting me on my desk. Thing is, I was already prepared, and having been up all night worrying about my problem, my letter was written and in an envelope. I went to my line manager and gave it to her, and just said 'I'm appealing against your letter'. She made no comment and although I saw her photocopying it, she has made no mention of it all day and no acknowledgement that it has been passed to management higher up.

Hazy did you seek out the union rep?

 

[hazyp]

Hazy did you seek out the union rep?

Hi,

No, i wasnt given any time to do anything, I was kept busy, and nothing was said to me about my letter of appeal. However, I am off work for a weeks leave now, so I shall do it then. Do you have any idea where my local office is?

 

[Markyd]

Hi,

No, i wasnt given any time to do anything, I was kept busy, and nothing was said to me about my letter of appeal. However, I am off work for a weeks leave now, so I shall do it then. Do you have any idea where my local office is?

H

There is a rep in every office or should be.

And you are allowed time to speak to union reps about work (or indeed private issues which affect your workplace)

Pm me the office that you work in and I;ll see if I can find out through my contacts at HQ.

If someone from DWP reads this can you help?

 

[jeff_leigh]

H

There is a rep in every office or should be.

And you are allowed time to speak to union reps about work (or indeed private issues which affect your workplace)

Pm me the office that you work in and I;ll see if I can find out through my contacts at HQ.

If someone from DWP reads this can you help?

should find the relevant info here

 

[Markyd]

should find the relevant info here

Cheers

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Think about it from a socio-economic/ethnic profile/medical condition and ill health perspective. To punish people for being ill is, demographically and epidemiologically, to punish them for being older and working class/non-white.

Arguable, but a strong position.

older, yes, definitely and I believe it is either now or soon that the law will say that employers cannot dismiss on ground of age. what I cannot get is the issue of ethnic profile. perhaps if you could clarify that, it might help. I just can't see why white people get less sick than other people.

 

[Derian]

Well, when I got to work today...Lo and behold there was my warning letter awaiting me on my desk. Thing is, I was already prepared, and having been up all night worrying about my problem, my letter was written and in an envelope. I went to my line manager and gave it to her, and just said 'I'm appealing against your letter'. She made no comment and although I saw her photocopying it, she has made no mention of it all day and no acknowledgement that it has been passed to management higher up.

Was there no disciplinary hearing?

 

[Markyd]

Was there no disciplinary hearing?

There should have been a meeting with agreed notes. Deffo.

Hayz see they've fucked up already.

 

[Derian]

There should have been a meeting with agreed notes. Deffo.

Hayz see they've fucked up already.

Yes, there's a set format.

This is the ACAS code of practice (careful, PDF but worth downloading)

The ACAS code of practice is a statutory instrument. That means that it is approved by Parliament. Employers don't have to follow it - but as it is written to comply with the relevant legislation & the Employment Tribunals certainly use it as a frame of reference, any employer that doesn't follow it would have a tough time showing that they had followed a fair procedure.

This whole thread is getting very hazy. It's a good idea to tell us what they have actually done (facts) so far chronologically, because I for one am getting unclear as to grievances v appeals etc.

Have a ganders at the link though

 

[Derian]

older, yes, definitely and I believe it is either now or soon that the law will say that employers cannot dismiss on ground of age. what I cannot get is the issue of ethnic profile. perhaps if you could clarify that, it might help. I just can't see why white people get less sick than other people.

It's going a bit off the topic of this particular thread - but it's a fact that some racial minorities have a lower life expectancy/infant mortality rate. Gypsies are a case in point. Iirc 10% lower life expectancy linking to being turned away from what we would consider basic rights such as signing on with a GP. There's more about it on the Commission For Racial Equality's website if you have a search around. Bit of a tenuous argument here though, imo. Yes, age discrimination comes into effect October this year. *stops own going off at tangent*


edit: I posted some information on age discrimination etc here if you want to know more about it.

 

[AnnaKarpik]

Sorry folks, I'm reading this from the perspective of a minimum-wage-slave so forgive me if I ask - is this about limiting the number of days a person can get contractual sick pay? Anyone who is sick for the required nujmber of days gets SSP, so it seems to me this is about getting full pay for sick days. I don't get that. When did it become a right?

 

[Looby]

Sorry folks, I'm reading this from the perspective of a minimum-wage-slave so forgive me if I ask - is this about limiting the number of days a person can get contractual sick pay? Anyone who is sick for the required nujmber of days gets SSP, so it seems to me this is about getting full pay for sick days. I don't get that. When did it become a right?

I think the issue is more the effect on job security, future pay awards etc

 

[Derian]

I think the issue is more the effect on job security, future pay awards etc

That's my take on it too.