Would you vote Tory to stop the BNP getting elected?

[nino_savatte]

Not in the BNP anymore (for now anyway).

Oh? When did he leave?

 

[butchersapron]

He was *asked* to leave earlier this year after trying to intice someone to murder a cabinet member. He has a a good political brain, he's just very daft with it.

 

[JoePolitix]

In what sense have they helped them grow? By putting in place the conditions that the BNP are now thriving on.

This mantra is of course the received wisdom of the far left. Leaving aside the fact that it assumes that the conditions of working class communities are currently getting worse, which I don’t think is the case, I’m not convinced by the idea that the relationship between assaults on working class living standards necessarily translates into increased support for fascists.

Take the 1980s for example which saw the worst period of British reaction in living memory, the fascists underwent a crisis during that period. The Tories were able to steal their clothes, presenting themselves as the jingoistic party of “law and order”. Much of the NF’s activists returned to their old political home. They split and split again and only began reviving when Thatcherism was suffering its death agony.

In my opinion the fascists have made substantive improvements in recent years for a number of reasons.

Firstly, the shift of the political landscape in Britain. The current scramble of the main parties to the “centre” has blurred traditional ideological lines and led to antipathy translating into the low voter turnouts that the fash thrive on. In addition to this the Torie’s re-branding themselves into caring green liberals has opened up spaces to forces to their right to snap up the votes of the dinosaur bigots and racists who feel betrayed by Cameron.

Secondly, there has been the enlargement of the EU and fears about mass immigration that the BNP have been able to exploit to their advantage.

Thirdly, the change in tactics by the BNP via Griffin’s “modernisation” of the party. Anti-fascists have to admit that this strategy has had relative success and that the BNP have been able to convince some people that they are a respectable political party. They have been particularly able to hop on the Islamophobia bandwagon, which the mainstream parties must share responsibility for by the scape-goating of muslim communities for their failed foreign policies.

Following from this analysis I believe that anti-fascists should commit themselves in the here and now to exposing the BNP’s racist ideology and criminal connections whilst encouraging the maximum amount of people to use their vote against them in whatever way they see fit.

In addition to this defence of the living standards of our communities though campaigns, residents associations, the trade unions etc will be necessary to show alternatives to the fash.

Would I ever vote Tory to stop the fash? Frankly the thought makes me gag but I never say never. Sometimes in desperate situations – needs must.
Vote tory with no illusions!

 

[butchersapron]

Firstly, the shift of the political landscape in Britain. The current scramble of the main parties to the “centre” has blurred traditional ideological lines and led to antipathy translating into the low voter turnouts that the fash thrive on. In addition to this the Torie’s re-branding themselves into caring green liberals has opened up spaces to forces to their right to snap up the votes of the dinosaur bigots and racists who feel betrayed by Cameron.

Just to come back on this single point for now, the Joseph Rowntree report and other similiar investigations have concluded the opposite - that the BNP does better in areas with higher turnouts as it tends to attract first time voters or people who haven't voted for years. They are actually attrating new voters to them rather than it being a case of the tide retreating to reveal an already existing BNP vote.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

I think the post is referring to a possibility of having a similar scenario to that in France between Chirac and Le Pen in 2002 - only at a local level. The question being if the choice was between Tory or BNP with none of the other candidates with a hope in hell of winning, what would you do?

I agree with the those who've stated that the BNP that is about today is not the same as the one 15 years ago when they gained a council seat in the East End. The social conditions have changed and the impact of both technology and globalisation have had a huge impact on both far right and far left.

 

[bluestreak]

I would be be very intrested in how you have formed that opinion.
Anyone from the BNP I have ever seen being interviewed is worryingly articulate. Griffin wiped the floor with Paxman when he was interviewed on Newsnight.
Given the very suspect people in other political parties I wonder why you think the BNP is any worse when it comes to dodgy characters in its ranks.

well, i didn't see that, but i've never seen griffin come across as particularly articulate when i have seen him. maybe i have a higher standard of articulate than most.

in my experience the bnp and their supporters are knuckle-draggers of the highest calibre. other parties have their dodgy characters and muppets too, but not as high a percentage as teh bnp.

 

[_angel_]

I think the post is referring to a possibility of having a similar scenario to that in France between Chirac and Le Pen in 2002 - only at a local level. The question being if the choice was between Tory or BNP with none of the other candidates with a hope in hell of winning, what would you do?

I agree with the those who've stated that the BNP that is about today is not the same as the one 15 years ago when they gained a council seat in the East End. The social conditions have changed and the impact of both technology and globalisation have had a huge impact on both far right and far left.

Hmm if we had a stupid pr system like france and ended up with a cameron or griffin scenario. I dunno I suppose I'd vote cameron. At a local level I couldn't even bring myself to vote labour against the bnp never mind tory. But they were no credible rival really.

 

[JoePolitix]

Just to come back on this single point for now, the Joseph Rowntree report and other similiar investigations have concluded the opposite - that the BNP does better in areas with higher turnouts as it tends to attract first time voters or people who haven't voted for years. They are actually attrating new voters to them rather than it being a case of the tide retreating to reveal an already existing BNP vote.

Yeah, I expressed myself badly on that one. What I meant to say was that the BNP achieve high votes in areas which have pre-existing low turn-outs. My understanding of the Rowntree findings is that they found no relationship between low voter turnout and BNP electoral successes.

Interestingly the Rowntree report also found that the BNP’s support comes not from the most poor and deprived communities but mainly from skilled and semi-skilled workers. These voters endorse in varying degrees the BNP’s stance on Islam and immigration, are often former tory voters and generally have no direct contact with non-white people.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm always amused at the fact that non-proletarian support for the BNP surprises people.
Griffin has been manouvering for electoral quasi-respectability for ages, since Tyndall's day. He knows that if he can even get a fraction of the middle-class support that Mosley did, then he'll be a step closer to being able to influence national politics.

 

[Meltingpot]

Nope, nor labour or LD or green.

No far right party has ever retained council seats, not even in small areas with a lot of support - the BNP have been doing it nationally for 5 years and picking up 10-30% all over the shop. These are new conditions.

But they aren't retaining many seats though - they're getting elected one time and voted out the next because, on the whole, they suck as councillors. The exceptions tend to be people like Carol Hughes in Burnley who started out as councillors for another party and converted to the BNP.

 

[JoePolitix]

I'm always amused at the fact that non-proletarian support for the BNP surprises people.
Griffin has been manouvering for electoral quasi-respectability for ages, since Tyndall's day. He knows that if he can even get a fraction of the middle-class support that Mosley did, then he'll be a step closer to being able to influence national politics.

But unfortunately the Rowntree report and others have found that the party's support is strongest amongst the working class - just not among the poorest strata as many would have assumed.

 

[chymaera]

Most BNP candidates have no real knowledge of what being a councillor entails.

From my experience of dealing with councillors, the BNP is not unique in that characteristic.

 

[Dhimmi]

If so, why?

I think for a lot of people that's a Hitler v Mussolini choice...

What about Labour or lib-dem?

Now with an added Franco option.

 

[Meltingpot]

I think for a lot of people that's a Hitler v Mussolini choice...

Now with an added Franco option.

So you think the Lib Dems have plans to turn this country into a authoritarian Catholic state whilst imprisoning, torturing and / or executing political dissidents?

 

[Dhimmi]

If you think the Lib Dems have anything in common with Franco, tell me about their plans to turn this country into a Catholic theocracy whilst torturing and / or executing political dissidents.

I won't hold my breath.

Taking me a just a trifle too literally there...

 

[Meltingpot]

Taking me a just a trifle too literally there...

I toned that down a bit...

OK, so what did you mean by a comparison like that?

 

[The Black Hand]

TO be honest I don't think it matters what individuals do in this case
I certainly wouldn't read anything into whatever people thought necessary to do at any particular time at their local poll.

 

[Dhimmi]

I toned that down a bit...

OK, so what did you mean by a comparison like that?

I meant that a lot of folk would find the options a sliding scale of undesirables. Of course Labour and Libdems were bunched together, which didn't help.

 

[DrRingDing]

The BNP are a joke as a political force,and the tories are still the darlings of much of the media.

Would you vote BNP to get a longstanding and smug tory out of his seat?

 

[DrRingDing]

The BNP are a joke as a political force,and the tories are still the darlings of much of the media.

Would you vote BNP to get a longstanding and smug tory out of his seat?

Well imagine you're in a decent country where voting actually means something.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But unfortunately the Rowntree report and others have found that the party's support is strongest amongst the working class - just not among the poorest strata as many would have assumed.

Yes, but more strongly among the strata termed "aspirational", the people who've learned how to mobilise their limited social capital, and whose kids are more likely to go to uni, and to live somewhat higher up the social ladder than their parents. Factor this in with the pre-existing social problem of elements of the middle class's prefering (economically) "segregated" communities, and I'm worried that we're going to see a real "turn" toward the hard right by the middle classes in 10-20 years time, not necessarily because people have become overtly racist, but because they prefer economic segregation, and because they have little experience of interacting on equal terms with people who're not "their kind".

Apologies, but I'm a bit obsessive about the fact that I've always witnessed far more racism perpetrated by the middle classes than the working classes.

 

[chymaera]

Apologies, but I'm a bit obsessive about the fact that I've always witnessed far more racism perpetrated by the middle classes than the working classes.

A point that seems to be missed by people who comment about the high unemployment amongst black youth is the fact that working class white people are not employers.
If black and other ethnic minorities have high unemployment rates it is the middle classes not giving them jobs. (They would rather exploit illegal immigrants and migrant workers from Eastern Europe.)

 

[TAE]

Would you vote Tory to stop the BNP getting elected?

No.

It's not my responsibility how other people vote, but it is my responsibility how I vote.

Hence I would not vote for a party who's policies I strongly disagree with.

 

[JoePolitix]

No.

It's not my responsibility how other people vote, but it is my responsibility how I vote.

Hence I would not vote for a party who's policies I strongly disagree with.

Petit bourgeois individualist

 

[TAE]

Would you prefer:

"The working class should vote according to left wing principles and should not be intimidated into voting for any right wing party"

 

[Meltingpot]

I meant that a lot of folk would find the options a sliding scale of undesirables. Of course Labour and Libdems were bunched together, which didn't help.

OK, fair enough. Sadly, much of what passes for politics nowadays is a case of choosing the "least worst" option, especially in a first past the post system. Both Labour and the Tories take their core supporters for granted.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Are there many (any?) Tory vs BNP marginal wards?

There's one (at least):

Bradford Queensbury May 2007

Cromie Lynda Jane British National Party 1,718 36.6%
Hanson Stuart Conservative 1,563 33.3%
Mahony Graham Vincent Labour 957 20.4%
Habergham Antony Liberal Democrat 455 9.7%

Total electorate entitled to vote 11,301
Total number of ballot papers received (including rejected papers) 4700
Percentage poll 42
Number of rejected ballot papers 7
http://www.bradford.gov.uk/asp/elections2007/index.asp?w=30


Not very marginal, but BNP are second to tories in:
---------
Liversedge & Gomersal, Kirklees 2007 Election.
Party Candidate Name Votes

CON Conservative Derrick Yates 2,157 Elected (Majority of 721)
BNP British National Party Alan Girvan 1,436
LAB Labour Marielle Charmaine O'Neill 1,006
LIBDEM Liberal Democrat Neil Darren Bentley 387
GRN Green Gillian Wendy Redshaw 208

Total Votes: 5,194
Turnout: 39.7%
-------------

Mirfield Kirlees May 2007 Election
Party Candidate Name Votes

CON Conservative Kathleen Taylor 2,928 Elected (Majority of 1,417)
BNP British National Party Andrew Cookson 1,511
LAB Labour Julie Miles 901
NEW New David Pinder 388
LIBDEM Liberal Democrat Carol McCormack 359
GRN Green Natalie Holdsworth 184

Total Votes: 6,271
Turnout: 42.96%
---------------------------

I'd have voted labour if I'd lived in any of those wards.

 

[_angel_]

Yes, but more strongly among the strata termed "aspirational", the people who've learned how to mobilise their limited social capital, and whose kids are more likely to go to uni, and to live somewhat higher up the social ladder than their parents. Factor this in with the pre-existing social problem of elements of the middle class's prefering (economically) "segregated" communities, and I'm worried that we're going to see a real "turn" toward the hard right by the middle classes in 10-20 years time, not necessarily because people have become overtly racist, but because they prefer economic segregation, and because they have little experience of interacting on equal terms with people who're not "their kind".

Apologies, but I'm a bit obsessive about the fact that I've always witnessed far more racism perpetrated by the middle classes than the working classes.

Mmmmmm it depends where you live. My mum and dads in Leeds is a nice middle class area and it's very racially mixed. But I suppose that's only really 'lower' middle class in the grand scheme of things.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Mmmmmm it depends where you live. My mum and dads in Leeds is a nice middle class area and it's very racially mixed. But I suppose that's only really 'lower' middle class in the grand scheme of things.

I totally agree. It is very location-dependent, and seems (to me at least) to be worse where there are small "islands" of low-quality social housing in otherwise supposedly "nice" areas (the good-quality social housing usually having been lost to social use through "right to buy"). In areas with high concentrations of social housing the problem doesn't appear to be too bad presently. I'm actually more worried by suburbs than I am by inner city areas, because many suburbs do have these small "islands" of low-quality social housing where the borough's poorest (and usually most in need of state welfare and social services) are, quite literally, dumped. This makes them such easy targets.

 

[Dhimmi]

OK, fair enough. Sadly, much of what passes for politics nowadays is a case of choosing the "least worst" option, especially in a first past the post system. Both Labour and the Tories take their core supporters for granted.

I believe you're right. It's that or sticking with whoever is in, an electorial path of least resistance.

I think there's too many levels of government too, each typically able to kybosh the lower ones, and odd when almost every other sector has to be slim and efficient. One of the things which infuriates me about the EU is it's an additional level of inefficient government, like building an extra floor on an unstable building. It's unjustifiably expensive, doesn't really deliver and tends to seek extending the careers of those in power.