There does seem to be this ideological thing with Blair et. al. where no legitimate activity can take place outside of the auspices of the state, but I don't believe for a second that New Labour are totalitarian in the classical sense or that htey are anywhere near as bad as the BNP would be, even in local government.KeyboardJockey said:
Would you vote Labour if...
- Thread starter Divisive Cotton
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Fisher_Gate
Active Member
KeyboardJockey said:
According to BNP literature, which provoked racist attacks and graffitti I believe ...
And it's spelt: Gascoigne ...
Happy that I quoted facts rather than assertions now?
I know there are decent people in the labour party.
Point is, if the majority really were against what Blair & Co are doing, would Blair & Co still be in power?
When was the last time that so many different people have been seriously talking about an emerging police state?
Point is, if the majority really were against what Blair & Co are doing, would Blair & Co still be in power?
A few repressive measures ? How about loads and loads ?In Bloom said:
When was the last time that so many different people have been seriously talking about an emerging police state?
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Fisher_Gate said:
FFS you must be getting fucked off you're having a go at spelling now.
If think that you will find that the Kosovo Towers moniker was probably picked up from general gossip although I don't deny that the BNP have used it and it has also been quoted in the Barking and Dagenham Post.
KeyboardJockey said:
Far, far too late. Not having a go but the number of people I hear coming out with this 'reclaiming the party' bollocks -- seems to be a way of making them feel better about themselves/voting Labour. (See also 'things'll be different when Gordon Brown becomes leader'.) Thing is, when you ask exactly how this might happen, well...
I would not vote for anyone standing for Labour, no matter what a great person they were or how leftwing they were or anything else. Because if they were that great and that leftwing they wouldn't still be in the Labour party. And it's not enough for them to say 'I don't agree with the party on this or that'. Fuck 'em.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
KeyboardJockey said:
Just seeking to establish the facts ...
I think if you drop all the "Respect are in hock to the imams" and "never trust a swappie" crap, you'll find that we actually agree on quite a few things.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Fisher_Gate said:Just seeking to establish the facts ...
I think if you drop all the "Respect are in hock to the imams" and "never trust a swappie" crap, you'll find that we actually agree on quite a few things.
As long as you accept that I could never support a party like Respect which even Galloway has said is 'the party for muslims' in the same way as I could never support Paisley's Democratic Unionist Party and as long as you accept that I along with quite a few others on here have had a bad experience with the SWP and their front groups then I'm quite happy to agree on the points that we agree on.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Sue said:
Political equivalent of the Jehovah's Witnesses ... just what we need?
The fact is that millions of decent people still vote Labour - if we write them off, we haven't got a hope. The reason some okay people stay in the party is because of that, not because they are all blairites.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
KeyboardJockey said:As long as you accept that I could never support a party like Respect which even Galloway has said is 'the party for muslims' in the same way as I could never support Paisley's Democratic Unionist Party and as long as you accept that I along with quite a few others on here have had a bad experience with the SWP and their front groups then I'm quite happy to agree on the points that we agree on.
The second point about "bad experience" with the SWP I have no problem with; I was in the Anti Nazi League and various other campaigns in the 1970s. But I don't let my past experience obstruct me from working together wherever possible. I was in the Labour Party for 25 years and believe me the Militant/SP were just as bad in their own way, but I still favour working with them too.
On the first point I simply think you are misreading the situation. If Respect put out a leaflet saying "Respect - the party for students" or "Respect - the party for rail workers" or even "Respect - the party for those who want to Make Poverty History", I suspect you would have no problem with it. The fact is that the muslim community more than any other was opposed to the war, and that Respect, more than any other party, was active in the anti-war movement. So it is entirely natural that Respect should aim to appeal to the muslim community's strong anti-war feelings. Anyway "the party for muslims" slogan is hardly a centre-piece of Respect's campaign literature, if at all. Try and judge us by the totality of what we do.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Sue said:
No I don't think the Labour Party can be 'reclaimed'. I never thought there was a 'golden era' to be reclaimed anyway - the Labour Party has always had rotten leaders and rotten pro-capitalist policies.
But I draw a distinction between the Labour Party and the other bourgeois parties, because of its links to the working class, through the trade unions and because it still has the support of a large majority of the most oppressed sections of society.
I still think the substance of Lenin's polemic against ultra-leftism towards the Labour Party remains valid, though I don't deny that there is very little internal life in the Party these days and would encourage people to leave the Party and join Respect (I don't encourage people to leave the Labour Party and 'drop out' of politics, and I'm not in favour of union disaffiliation per se without affiliating to an alternative)
The "Respect thing" is about the process of building an alternative. This process will go through many stages, sometimes positive, sometimes negative. In broad terms, I think Respect is the most important prospect of building an alternative to arise since the second world war - more positive than the Bevanite and Bennite movements within the Labour Party, who were weaker because they were trapped within the framework of making the Labour Party better. I don't hide that there are weaknesses about Respect, but on balance it is an overwhelmingly positive development, worth trying to make better, than staying outside.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Sue said:
Eh?
... but I do judge people by their own standards of what they say is important, and if they say precisely where you live matters, that has to be up for scrutiny.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Fisher_Gate said:
Ah yes! Respect the theocratic party you can vote for between general elections without compromising your secularism too much - for the moment.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Sue said:
I always like this one from Homer Simpson:
Homer: How is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home winemaking course, and I forgot how to drive?
Tom A
Goat among sheep
Yeah I would vote Labour if it would keep the BNP out, unless there was an decent alternative (Socialist, Green, etc), as I don't wish to fall into the trap of being scared into voting for Labour warmongering out of fear of the BNP bogeyman. Would also depend on the individual candidate. However if there was no alternative I would consider even voting Tory if that was what it took to prevent a BNP winning a seat.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
KeyboardJockey said:
I don't call these recent articles examples of a 'theocratic party':
http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?ite=1053&rlid=5
http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?ite=1051&rlid=5
Nor this one from the General Election:
http://www.respectcoalition.org/elect/local.php?seatid=40&a=1&ite=709
There's always an "emerging police state."TAE said:
If it's not the Guardian bitching about Tony Blair's government, it's the Mail ranting about the politically correct liberal tyrants or some such shit. Deeply tedious and a complete distraction from what is actually happening.
scott_forester
probably talking shite
Tom A said:
That's my point, I'd rather vote for something than just to stop the BNP - a threat wildly overblow by Parties that have disengaged from local politics and
just focus on the few seats they need to win power. If the BNP get an MP (God forbid) thats the system in action.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Tom A said:
Is this the same "Muslim" "homophobic PJP" whose councillors have just joined the secular, Gay Rights supporting, Lib Dems?
Never mind, if you say something often enough someone will eventually believe it ...
Tom A
Goat among sheep
Oh how short a memory people have...
Ref: https://www2.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/06/292626.html
But that aside, Galloway himself is reason enough to put me off voting for Respect, with all his antics on Big Brother, and the fact that he recieves a full parliamentary salary rather than a worker's wage. Some socialist party then.
Indymedia said:
Ref: https://www2.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/06/292626.html
But that aside, Galloway himself is reason enough to put me off voting for Respect, with all his antics on Big Brother, and the fact that he recieves a full parliamentary salary rather than a worker's wage. Some socialist party then.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Tom A said:
Yay! Got the swappie bastards
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
KeyboardJockey said:Yay! Got the swappie bastards
Firstly I am not involved nor have I ever had anything to do with the SWP. But once again, don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument
I thought you realised that after your claims that there were no significant muslim populations in your own borough was disproved ...Secondly, the irony here is that this is the same PJP people whose councillors have now joined the LibDems they once sought to attack. It was never a PJP leaflet. Respect demanded that the PJP withdrew the unauthorised leaflet and they duly did so - the then secretary of the PJP, Raghib Ahsan, who made sure the offending leaflet was scrapped, is now a Respect candidate in the local elections.
Respect stood by its principles. The only people with egg on their faces are the LibDems. [who incidentally are about to recruit a Labour councillor who opposed all women shortlists and was suspended for bullying fellow party members]
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Fisher_Gate said:Firstly I am not involved nor have I ever had anything to do with the SWP. But once again, don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument
Secondly, the irony here is that this is the same PJP people whose councillors have now joined the LibDems they once sought to attack. It was never a PJP leaflet. Respect demanded that the PJP withdrew the unauthorised leaflet and they duly did so - the then secretary of the PJP, Raghib Ahsan, who made sure the offending leaflet was scrapped, is now a Respect candidate in the local elections.
Respect stood by its principles. The only people with egg on their faces are the LibDems.
Respect are a Swappie front org though arn't they?
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