Would you vote Labour if...

[mutley]

I meant that if a BNP candidate was standing in my area, I'd vote to keep them out, not that if a BNP candidate was standing in my area, I'd vote against them.

Though I can see how it might have appeared that way, the language in my post was stupidly ambiguous

Doh

Glad to hear it!

Some fucker went for the BNP on that poll though..

 

[MatthewCuffe]

Blair is Al Capone. Griffin is a happy slapping playground bully.

And he is, of course, the latest small-fry scapegoat for the Big Macho Man's war crimes.

HUNGER. STRIKES. ARE. SPREADING. ACROSS. ALL. OUR. DETENTION. AND. REMOVAL. CENTRES.

Or, er, 'Gulags'. Does anyone here who is left of Adolf Hitler LIKE New Labour's attitude to people who come to the UK from other parts of the world?

Ciao Tony.

http://www.impeachblair.org

 

[JTG]

Hmmm, vote for a party who'd like to impose nasty right wing, totalitarian policies (such as passing laws to enable ministers to bypass Parliament) or one who are actually doing it?

Fuck off would I ever vote Labour under any circumstances, they're the real enemy.

 

[MatthewCuffe]

Big UP!!!!

New Labour - NO PASARAN

Take your ID cards and your electronic tags and stick them up your ugly derrieres. I hate the way this government has treated people from other countries. If you've been tortured or imprisoned, you're welcome round my house. Fudgepack it, the way we have treated half the world - got drunk, colonised it, beaten people up, killed them - and then we have the temerity to treat them like pondscum when they need our help. We should be on our hands and knees, grovelling, treating them like royalty.

If this carries on any longer I'm shipping out of the prison island.\

Why aren't we asking why everybody is leaving instead of incarcerating people left, right, and centre?

BRAIN DRAIN!!!!

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article322073.ece

New Labour IS the BNP, for fuck's sake.

The BNP is just New Labour without the posh degrees.

What prison planet are those 60% who said they would vote for Blair on????

The Emperor ain't got no clothes on.

 

[In Bloom]

Hmmm, vote for a party who'd like to impose nasty right wing, totalitarian policies (such as passing laws to enable ministers to bypass Parliament) or one who are actually doing it?

Fuck off would I ever vote Labour under any circumstances, they're the real enemy.

For all the rhetoric, the fact is that the BNP are far, far worse than Labour.

Labour sneak around the edges and push through anti-working class legislation as much as they can, the BNP are part of a violent fascist movement which would replace the current bullshit and spin with outright brutality.

I suppose if you view voting as actually being worth something, then you may want to vote for some wonder party of absolute principle and altruism. Good luck finding one

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Two of B&D's 17 wards have muslim populations of more than 10%

Name the wards please. And the fact that you arn't standing in these wards wouldn't happen to have anything to do with there not being a culture of mosque members taking voting instructions from community leaders would it like in Newham - of course not.

... but don't let the facts get in the way of a good prejudiced argument, will you?

A bit like what the SWP do. I recall a few years ago a senior swappie in b and d telling me they 'ran the bnp out of town' like hell they did.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Name the wards please. And the fact that you arn't standing in these wards wouldn't happen to have anything to do with there not being a culture of mosque members taking voting instructions from community leaders would it like in Newham - of course not.
...

Look them up yourself.

You're such an expert on all issues to do with islam so you should know how to do it. One of them has more than 20% muslim, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find them - even for you.

Then as soon as you've found the facts contradict what you say, come up with some more crap instead ...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Look them up yourself.

You're such an expert on all issues to do with islam so you should know how to do it. One of them has more than 20% muslim, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find them - even for you.

I'll look then up but you were the one who made the assertion that there are wards that have a large population of muslims. I'm assuming at this point you mean the wards that border Redbridge although I'll check later.

I didn't say I was an expert on Islam I was making the obervation that the neighbouring borough Newham (where Respect did stand) has a culture of councillors and labour party members schmoozing with muslim community leaders to get a block vote out. What appears to be happening is tht bloc vote is now being courted by Respect. That type of political cuture don't exist so much in b and d. I was making the obersvation that the type of political cuture that exists in Newham is not there in B and D whichis why Respect won't stand.

Then as soon as you've found the facts contradict what you say, come up with some more crap instead ...

I'm assuming by that you mean my comment of the gross lies from a b and d swappie that they ran the bnp out of town.

 

[JTG]

For all the rhetoric, the fact is that the BNP are far, far worse than Labour.

Nope, Labour are worse because Labour wield actual real power.

It's like asking who's more dangerous, the Prime Minister or a shouty bloke down the pub.

 

[In Bloom]

Nope, Labour are worse because Labour wield actual real power.

So your argument is that it doesn't matter if the BNP gain political power because they don't have any political power?

 

[JTG]

No, my argument is that if we perpetuate Labour's power in areas where the BNP do well then we help maintain the conditions in which the BNP prosper. Therefore creating a situation where the BNP will be more likely to gain control of the council eventually.

You destroy the BNP's support by supporting genuine, progressive alternatives to both them and the mainstream parties. Not by voting in the same old corrupt, incompetent careerists.

This is not in any way an endorsement of Respect btw who are not at all progressive.

 

[In Bloom]

No, my argument is that if we perpetuate Labour's power in areas where the BNP do well then we help maintain the conditions in which the BNP prosper. Therefore creating a situation where the BNP will be more likely to gain control of the council eventually.

You destroy the BNP's support by supporting genuine, progressive alternatives to both them and the mainstream parties. Not by voting in the same old corrupt, incompetent careerists.

This is not in any way an endorsement of Respect btw who are not at all progressive.

What electoral alternatives exist to the BNP then? It's all the same shite afaic and I'd prefer not to end up with a fash controlled council.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I'll look then up but you were the one who made the assertion that there are wards that have a large population of muslims. I'm assuming at this point you mean the wards that border Redbridge although I'll check later.

I didn't say I was an expert on Islam I was making the obervation that the neighbouring borough Newham (where Respect did stand) has a culture of councillors and labour party members schmoozing with muslim community leaders to get a block vote out. What appears to be happening is tht bloc vote is now being courted by Respect. That type of political cuture don't exist so much in b and d. I was making the obersvation that the type of political cuture that exists in Newham is not there in B and D whichis why Respect won't stand.

I think before you can prove that you are an expert on the ways of the muslim community in the east end of london, showing you know where they actually live in high concentration within your borough might help with the credibility of your argument.

If it helps you locate the wards, you will find the Greens are standing some candidates, including one where the muslim population is >10%. The BNP are not standing in either. You should not be surprised that both wards with >10% muslim population neighbour Newham (and one neighbours Redbridge as well).

I'm assuming by that you mean my comment of the gross lies from a b and d swappie that they ran the bnp out of town.

No - see above. I don't take a lot of notice of the comments of an individual member of the SWP made some years ago. Point to something in their press or website if you want to polemicise against them by all means, but worrying about singular asides are a waste of yours and my time.

I find it interesting that there is a lot of press coverage and interest in one area in London where the BNP are building some strength. This covered one constituency where they got a significant vote in the General Election. Despite this they are only standing in 7 of the 17 wards for the council, and in those not a full slate, in spite of the opportunity to stand in council elections being only every four years.

But very little is currently being said about the vast swathes of Pennine Lancashire and Yorkshire where the BNP vote has consistently topped 10% for some years (eg Euro elections 2004 when the BNP got around 10-15% in an area from Blackburn east across the pennines to Leeds). They are a real threat here. It's another typical example of a media and political establishment dominated by London.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Up to a point I can see JTG's point of view on this in that the conditions that are creating a bnp rise in areas like b and d are the fault of new labour. As well as the starving of areas like mine of proper resources, the fake development consultations, coupled with the sneering attitude of NL to the white working classes is building support for the bnp.

However, there is a difference between voting directly in my area for scum like Hodge and therefore by inference Blaircunt and voting for a respected local councillor who is under threat from the BNP who can get the canvassing bodies out whereas the local labour party cannot due to so many people leaving due to blair.

Just take a look at the choice I've got FFS. Labour is really the only place to go. I don't think the Tories stand much of a chance and the lib dems have run scared. That just leaves UKIP and the BNP.

Candidates in Mayesbrook Ward

 

[Fisher_Gate]

...you were the one who made the assertion that there are wards that have a large population of muslims.

It wasn't an assertion, by the way - it was a fact: there are two wards of the 17 in Barking and Dagenham borough that have more than 10% muslim population. Fact. Nothing you say can change that fact.

Try to distinguish between assertion and facts in future.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

...
Just take a look at the choice I've got FFS. Labour is really the only place to go. I don't think the Tories stand much of a chance and the lib dems have run scared. That just leaves UKIP and the BNP.

Candidates in Mayesbrook Ward

In this circumstance, Labour is the only vote.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I think before you can prove that you are an expert on the ways of the muslim community in the east end of london, showing you know where they actually live in high concentration within your borough might help with the credibility of your argument.

If it helps you locate the wards, you will find the Greens are standing some candidates, including one where the muslim population is >10%. The BNP are not standing in either. You should not be surprised that both wards with >10% muslim population neighbour Newham (and one neighbours Redbridge as well).

Right Abbey Ward contains 21.7 Muslim but there are just Labour and Tories standing there. No Respect there I see. Nor any greens. The greens are standing in Eastbury Ward along with the Lib Dems and BNP. None of the other census info mentions Islam at all. The point I was trying to make earlier is that although Respect targets the muslim community it does so in areas like Newham and Tower Hamlets where there is a pre existing political machine available to latch onto. In other words a whipped mosque vote.

I noticed the Greens and the Lib Dems are standing along with the BNP in one of our more affluent wards. Typical greens and lib dem attitude 'them proles in Mayesbrook can go fuck themselves.'

Respect must be really proud of themselves importing the highly successful faith based politics of Ulster into the mainland of the UK

No - see above. I don't take a lot of notice of the comments of an individual member of the SWP made some years ago. Point to something in their press or website if you want to polemicise against them by all means, but worrying about singular asides are a waste of yours and my time.

Fair point - I was just using it as an personal example of the utter untrustworthiness of the SWP.

I find it interesting that there is a lot of press coverage and interest in one area in London where the BNP are building some strength. This covered one constituency where they got a significant vote in the General Election. Despite this they are only standing in 7 of the 17 wards for the council, and in those not a full slate, in spite of the opportunity to stand in council elections being only every four years.

Some of this may well be down to Hodge trying to talk out her own support it may also be down to the fact that we have a govt minister who represents all that is sleazy and sneering about NL who is facing a challenge from the BNP.

The BNP may also be suffering somewhat from some ahem internal problems. They got badly burned in Goresbrook by putting up Clueless Kelley for election. They might be concentrating on those wards such as Mayesbrook where they stand a very good chance.

But very little is currently being said about the vast swathes of Pennine Lancashire and Yorkshire where the BNP vote has consistently topped 10% for some years (eg Euro elections 2004 when the BNP got around 10-15% in an area from Blackburn east across the pennines to Leeds). They are a real threat here. It's another typical example of a media and political establishment dominated by London.

That may well be down to Londoncentric news organisations as you say.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It wasn't an assertion, by the way - it was a fact: there are two wards of the 17 in Barking and Dagenham borough that have more than 10% muslim population. Fact. Nothing you say can change that fact.

Try to distinguish between assertion and facts in future.

Hang on I've just beenthrough the LBBD census data as far as I can see - correct me if I'm wrong but only the data on Abbey Ward mentioned a percentage of muslims.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Hang on I've just beenthrough the LBBD census data as far as I can see - correct me if I'm wrong but only the data on Abbey Ward mentioned a percentage of muslims.

Don't bother with crappy council websites - go straight to the source!
And <hint> try immediately to the south of Abbey...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Don't bother with crappy council websites - go straight to the source!
And <hint> try immediately to the south of Abbey...

Ah Yes. See what you mean.

 

[X-77]

I personally couldn't vote for a New Labourite under any circumstances. BNP are fascist scum but New Labour are mass-murdering scum and I fail to see how Blair is any less dangerous than Griffin after all he's done - I'm sure there aren't many mourning Iraqis or Afghans who would thank us for voting Blair. And I think it's been mentioned that NL are a huge boost for the BNP anyway - whipping up hatred towards Muslims and asylum seekers for e.g. - and so it really doesn't make any logical sense to keep voting in people who are to blame for perpetuating racist views in the first place.

It is of course important to campaign against the BNP in any way possible and to keep pushing forward with progressive alternatives, as others here have said also.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I personally couldn't vote for a New Labourite under any circumstances. BNP are fascist scum but New Labour are mass-murdering scum and I fail to see how Blair is any less dangerous than Griffin after all he's done - I'm sure there aren't many mourning Iraqis or Afghans who would thank us for voting Blair. And I think it's been mentioned that NL are a huge boost for the BNP anyway - whipping up hatred towards Muslims and asylum seekers for e.g. - and so it really doesn't make any logical sense to keep voting in people who are to blame for perpetuating racist views in the first place.

It is of course important to campaign against the BNP in any way possible and to keep pushing forward with progressive alternatives, as others here have said also.

I take your point but again there is a big difference between voting for a respected local councillor who happens to be lab and abstaining because there is a limited choice between labour bnp tories or UKIP as in my ward.

 

[X-77]

I take your point but again there is a big difference between voting for a respected local councillor who happens to be lab and abstaining because there is a limited choice between labour bnp tories or UKIP as in my ward.

oh yeah I would vote for a decent labour councillor who was anti-war etc, just not one of a new labour slimeball variety.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

oh yeah I would vote for a decent labour councillor who was anti-war etc, just not one of a new labour slimeball variety.

Fair enough. Not sure about my local councillors views on the war but she is quite frankly a very good councillor.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Ah Yes. See what you mean.

The Truth is Out There ... you just have to know where to look.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The Truth is Out There ... you just have to know where to look.

Gascgoine is the estate with the block known as Kosovo Towers isn't it IIRCC?

 

[TAE]

I guess I would, if it'd prevent a fash candidate from getting in, I'd happily vote for the least-worst alternative.

Yes, I'd vote Labour to keep the BNP out - even if it was a general election and I lived in Sedgefield and the Labour candidate's name on the ballot paper was Tony Blair. And voting for him would really hurt me. But ANYTHING to keep the BNP out.

I can see where you are coming from, and I agree to a certain extent, but ...
as I now consider NewLabour to be a totalitarian party, I'd want to vote against NL as much as I'd want to vote against BNP or NF.

 

[In Bloom]

I now consider NewLabour to be a totalitarian party

Sorry, but I really can't take this idea that because a Labour government has brought in a few repressive or anti-working class measures, it is "totalitarian" seriously. It smacks of hysteria and purism, IMO.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I can see where you are coming from, and I agree to a certain extent, but ...
as I now consider NewLabour to be a totalitarian party, I'd want to vote against NL as much as I'd want to vote against BNP or NF.

I agree that NL in the centre are a totalittarian party but there are people like Cllr Hunt in Mayesbrook who joined the party for the best of motives before the blairscum destroyed it. I don't think that voting for Cllr Hunt is the same as a vote for the blairscum or should people in my ward be voting for UKIP as they could take votes away from the BNP?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Sorry, but I really can't take this idea that because a Labour government has brought in a few repressive or anti-working class measures, it is "totalitarian" seriously. It smacks of hysteria and purism, IMO.

The coteries around blair are totalitarian in attitude but that doesn't mean the attitude is the same further down.

I think that ordinary decent people need to reclaim what is left of the party from the blairist usurpers.