Would you support revolutionary "criminals"

[Pickman's model]

it wasn't meant as a joke.

 

[Ryazan]

I didn't say it was.

 

[Pickman's model]

you certainly implied it.

but i can't linger to bandy words with you. some of us have things to do.

evil plots don't just make themselves, y'know.

 

[Ryazan]

Once victim, always victim- that's the law!

 

[The Black Hand]

Note Attica the interpretation of the Marxist Thompson's historical approach 'the voice in the crowd' by Young et al into some form of subculturism. Young et al may be interesting, provocative and wity but not Marxist. Thompson saw class ( and a live version of class at that) as the key issue in making history,.

I think you are wrong A dialectical view MUST be one that has a totalising perspective, and thus the concentration on subcultures/cultures is entirely correct. Otherwise you are left with an unMarxist pov which sees people as solely the victim of capital and the state. Rather, there IS room for manoeuvre, and capital and the state DOES react to the practices of the working class as it forces its needs and wants into history. My example here would be tobacco smuggling; the practice of the multitude has destablised the tobacco industry, and since the European 'free market' was established in 1992 has altered the practices of capital and the state as the masses have engaged in both the smuggling and consumption of smuggled tobacco.

 

[Ryazan]

The "multitude".

You sound like a Leninist. Or Charles Dickens.

 

[Pickman's model]

The "multitude".

You sound like a Leninist. Or Charles Dickens.

whereas you sound like a wanker. or a wanker's wanker.

 

[Ryazan]

I can't be. I'm not a member of Class War.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I think you are wrong A dialectical view MUST be one that has a totalising perspective, and thus the concentration on subcultures/cultures is entirely correct. Otherwise you are left with an unMarxist pov which sees people as solely the victim of capital and the state. Rather, there IS room for manoeuvre, and capital and the state DOES react to the practices of the working class as it forces its needs and wants into history. My example here would be tobacco smuggling; the practice of the multitude has destablised the tobacco industry, and since the European 'free market' was established in 1992 has altered the practices of capital and the state as the masses have engaged in both the smuggling and consumption of smuggled tobacco.

I hate to point this out but before sociology students discovered subcultural theory Thompson, Hill and others had already published works that were anything but portraying the working class as a just a victim of capital and the state. Marx himself did not just write about the working class a some static sub strata but saw the working class as the force that could end capitalism.

Btw fag smuggling beats the tax man not the tobacco company and can hardly be considered to be the pinnacle of working clalss struggle.

 

[The Black Hand]

I hate to point this out but before sociology students discovered subcultural theory Thompson, Hill and others had already published works that were anything but portraying the working class as a just a victim of capital and the state. Marx himself did not just write about the working class a some static sub strata but saw the working class as the force that could end capitalism.

Btw fag smuggling beats the tax man not the tobacco company and can hardly be considered to be the pinnacle of working clalss struggle.

Are we arguing at cross purposes here? I have already stated I like THompson Hill etc, are you agreeing with them? You are an autonomist after all

 

[The Black Hand]

The "multitude".

You sound like a Leninist. Or Charles Dickens.

doh! The multitude is an anti Leninist concept...

 

[Ryazan]

Explain this to me.

 

[The Black Hand]

Btw fag smuggling beats the tax man not the tobacco company and can hardly be considered to be the pinnacle of working clalss struggle.

I never replied to this before so;

True, but you cannot seperate capitalism from the state - it is a capitalist state. This is a Gramscian interpretation, and it is the multitude who are up against the capitalist states legal enforcers when they smuggle which is definately class struggle. I am not saying that smugglers seek out battles with Customs as they did in the 'good old days' - but there have been examples of attacks on Customs officers and premises....