Would an Anarchist Society Have a Legal System?

[littlebabyjesus]

Your thinking about what an anarchist society would be like is simply 'what would our society be like without any rules?', not 'what would a society that has a completely different set of social values be like? Until you engage on that point, there's no point in discussing this.

This is the problem with most discussions of anarchy on here.

Good to see you advocating it so well, btw.

 

[bhamgeezer]

Bold 1: Why will power inevitably recentralise itself? How would these society wide usupers ever get anywhere?

Because intelligent ruthless people exist and the usupers would achieve it through stealth

Bold 2: That's kind of the point of anarchism really - eveyrone looking out for everyone else; which is another reason your theoretical hierarchs would find it difficult to ever gain a foothold.

Most people wouldn't know the truth if it was sat on their head, they will go on believing what they want to until forced otherwise, therefore their policing would be of little use.

Bold 3: But what can someone offer people who live in an anarchy? What possible 'stake' could they offer people who reject hierarchy, in a hierarchy?

Control, a larger "stake" than the average person, sex?

Your thinking about what an anarchist society would be like is simply 'what would our society be like without any rules?', not 'what would a society that has a completely different set of social values be like? Until you engage on that point, there's no point in discussing this.

Your thinking that you change the social values you change the people of the society, this is just modern idealism. People don't change that much, even if you change all the enviromental effects upon an individual you can't detach them from their various preprogramed responses and behaviours which can be manipulated for this end.

The knowledge I've gained from psychology and neuroscience lead me to the opposite conclusion.

Well your reading some rather optimistic science if you think the fact you can stimulate various emotions and thoughts in the brain with electric nodes implies consciousness is not subject to the same rules we would regard of all things, namely that no event occurs unless something has caused it to.

 

[kyser_soze]

Your thinking that you change the social values you change the people of the society, this is just modern idealism. People don't change that much, even if you change all the enviromental effects upon an individual you can't detach them from their various preprogramed responses and behaviours which can be manipulated for this end.

If you think that the only society that humans are capable of creating is this one, and that no matter what the conditions humans will always only in terms of unenlightened self-interest we're at an end of the discussion.

This is one of the reasons I find your brand of determinism so utterly abhorent - in denying conscious change it also denies hope.

 

[bhamgeezer]

If you think that the only society that humans are capable of creating is this one, and that no matter what the conditions humans will always only in terms of unenlightened self-interest we're at an end of the discussion.

Thats not true, I think human beings are capable of alot, they can change their behaviours immenses because we have fantastically developed brains capable of considering alot of information in great depth. Personally I think anarchy is far better approach than the current one, I just think that one problem is it doesn't explain how we are to deal with corrupt individuals, how to see the signs before it is too late for the average individual to do anything. I see anarchy working best in an armed society, in which the poplace is capable and ready to defend themselves.

This is one of the reasons I find your brand of determinism so utterly abhorent - in denying conscious change it also denies hope.

Its not denying change its denying that this change would occur without cause, from some sort inherant force emitting from ourselves, and actually come from our perception of reality. Just because you are determined doesn't mean you are incapable or forced, you are aware of how your mind works with input and output, how well you process the information inbetween is where it counts.

 

[Cid]

Because intelligent ruthless people exist and the usupers would achieve it through stealth

This is such a bizarre way of thinking, I'm guessing it's a facet of your determinism or something, but you really seem to be totally submissive here. Can you really not conceptualise of standing up to someone who you know is trying to do something you disagree with?

Most people wouldn't know the truth if it was sat on their head, they will go on believing what they want to until forced otherwise, therefore their policing would be of little use.

Again this seems a weird view to take, often people are too quick to see manipulative behaviour in others... Ok people often go into denial when someone close to them is doing something they abhor, but that's a different matter. You have this awful view that most people are stupid, they're not... Poorly educated, yes, but inherently thick?

Control, a larger "stake" than the average person, sex?

Still you're running up against the problem that you have to convince a large part of a comfortable society of this... We're talking about a world where you only need to work a few days a week, are free to do what you want at other times, study, travel, indulge in hobbies, interests etc. you'll have a hell of a time trying to get people to give it up because some total cunt wants to dominate the world.

Your thinking that you change the social values you change the people of the society, this is just modern idealism. People don't change that much, even if you change all the enviromental effects upon an individual you can't detach them from their various preprogramed responses and behaviours which can be manipulated for this end.

2 words; prefrontal cortex.

 

[Jonti]

A mind-boggling range of different societies have existed through the ages and across the planet. Each has exemplified its own brand of social values. And of course the people of each society have behaved accordingly in reference to those social values.

People don't change that much (they remain hypersexual, slightly sexually dimorphic, language using social apes) but the way they see and think about things is, as a matter of observation, quite astonishingly diverse.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A mind-boggling range of different societies have existed through the ages and across the planet. Each has exemplified its own brand of social values. And of course the people of each society have behaved accordingly in reference to those social values.

People don't change that much (they remain hypersexual, slightly sexually dimorphic, language using social apes) but the way they see and think about things is, as a matter of observation, quite astonishingly diverse.

Yep.

 

[bhamgeezer]

This is such a bizarre way of thinking, I'm guessing it's a facet of your determinism or something, but you really seem to be totally submissive here. Can you really not conceptualise of standing up to someone who you know is trying to do something you disagree with?

No I just know that practicality rules and often people will do nothing if it doesn't effect them.

Again this seems a weird view to take, often people are too quick to see manipulative behaviour in others... Ok people often go into denial when someone close to them is doing something they abhor, but that's a different matter. You have this awful view that most people are stupid, they're not... Poorly educated, yes, but inherently thick?

Not stupid their are plenty of intelligent people, but how many are constantly analysising their own perception and how many just get on with life and focus only on the things that interest them?

Still you're running up against the problem that you have to convince a large part of a comfortable society of this... We're talking about a world where you only need to work a few days a week, are free to do what you want at other times, study, travel, indulge in hobbies, interests etc. you'll have a hell of a time trying to get people to give it up because some total cunt wants to dominate the world.

Some people just find that fun, have you never met any of those sociopaths who keep an outwardly normal face yet realistically are pretty sick in the head?

2 words; prefrontal cortex.

Is still a physical object and subject to the same physical laws, it is just extremely good at what it does.

 

[Cid]

No I just know that practicality rules and often people will do nothing if it doesn't effect them.

a) That's simply not true. 1 million people turned out to march against a war nearly 3000 miles away, you think those same people are going to stand by when they see someone trying to start up a dictatorship? And remember, that's in today's apathetic society where many of us knew the march would make fuck all difference but still turned up.

b) This clearly does affect them.

Not stupid their are plenty of intelligent people, but how many are constantly analysising their own perception and how many just get on with life and focus only on the things that interest them?

Again, if you educate people they'll be more aware of this kind of thing. Anyway, it's not just about analysing your perception (in fact it doesn't really have to be at all), it's also about simply recognising the abuses going on around you, which is considerably more simple. Why are you going to put up with someone trying to infringe on your liberties when you can leave and get other people to help you sort it out? Sure some people might be cowed, but that's only going to work on a very small scale. You're also still thinking in terms of our current world where you're stressed out by work, having to think about your finances, worrying about the mortgage etc... If you're only having to work a few days a week you have time to think about these things, you have time to study and engage with the world around you.

Some people just find that fun, have you never met any of those sociopaths who keep an outwardly normal face yet realistically are pretty sick in the head?

Again you're thinking in terms of current society... Many of these personalities are heavily influenced by societal pressures. Taught to function like that as a part of the world we live in, taught about social-darwinist stuff that would be laughed out of the lecture hall in our society. Even so what do you plan on doing? you need to find these sociopaths, you need to make no mistakes about who you choose, you then need to start meeting with them in a way that no-one picks up on, you then still need to find a way of getting everyone else on side.

Is still a physical object and subject to the same physical laws, it is just extremely good at what it does.

No, you're getting confused between 'physical laws' and brain chemistry... When you get right down to it your brain is a bunch of carbon atoms (and various other bits and pieces), but we are still somewhat different from, say, a lump of coal. Our brain has evolved to do various things, and one of those things is control social interaction, override basic instincts, urges and behaviours... That is what the pre-frontal cortex is there for. Now it may be that that is governed by a set of pre-set rules, but that is irrelevant because those pre-set rules are still aimed at overcoming the behaviours that you are so intent on manipulating.

 

[bhamgeezer]

I don't see people threatening to throw the government out when they went to war despite it being against public opinion, I don't even see a million people marching, the poll tax affected people directly and that is why they wouldn't accept it. People generally don't care about what they don't know about.

The point about about the brain being physical is to argue that it is determinate. I know we can totally change the way we think and behave due to our advanced cortex however we cannot make our brain infallible. Anarchy seems to suggest humans can become infallible which they certainly can't even if the average person could be a hell of alot smarter if society was designed in such a way it was beneficial to do so.

 

[Jonti]

Physical processes are not all determinate.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The point about about the brain being physical is to argue that it is determinate. I know we can totally change the way we think and behave due to our advanced cortex however we cannot make our brain infallible. Anarchy seems to suggest humans can become infallible which they certainly can't even if the average person could be a hell of alot smarter if society was designed in such a way it was beneficial to do so.

Not to me it doesn't. Any anarchist society would have its troubles and conflict that would need to be addressed. I wouldn't think any human society will ever reach a level of placid contentment from where we are now, but that isn't to say that we can't do a hell of a lot better than this.

 

[Cid]

I don't see people threatening to throw the government out when they went to war despite it being against public opinion, I don't even see a million people marching, the poll tax affected people directly and that is why they wouldn't accept it. People generally don't care about what they don't know about.

No, of course not, that would be fantastically stupid... You're seeing things in black and white again, you can want change but at the same time not want to risk everything you hold dear. And again this would be an event affecting people directly. And as I said, good luck controlling society without anyone noticing.

The point about about the brain being physical is to argue that it is determinate. I know we can totally change the way we think and behave due to our advanced cortex however we cannot make our brain infallible. Anarchy seems to suggest humans can become infallible which they certainly can't even if the average person could be a hell of alot smarter if society was designed in such a way it was beneficial to do so.

It doesn't though.

 

[kyser_soze]

Anarchy seems to suggest humans can become infallible

Not at all. What it would do is prevent fallible people holding power over others.