Would a Tory Government be a good thing?

[A Dashing Blade]

Dont think thats true. What is needed is Proportional Representation, . . .

What was it old man Mercedes (or Benz, one of them anyway) said . . . "Comittees should be made up of an odd number of people, and three is too many".

PR just leads to too many compromises imo.

/derail

 

[Teaboy]

What was it old man Mercedes (or Benz, one of them anyway) said . . . "Comittees should be made up of an odd number of people, and three is too many".

PR just leads to too many compromises imo.

/derail

I'm going to continue this derail...... Comprimises arnt always a bad thing.

As an aside it's funny how opponents of PR always wheel out the old, tired example of post war Italy, whilst completly ignoring the realitive stability of France and West Germany after the wars.

 

[trevhagl]

I'm going to continue this derail...... Comprimises arnt always a bad thing.

As an aside it's funny how opponents of PR always wheel out the old, tired example of post war Italy, whilst completly ignoring the realitive stability of France and West Germany after the wars.

PR would probably benefit the nazis BUT it is the only fair way if we are to have a democracy

 

[tar1984]

Agreed, PR is much fairer. It would help the greens too.

 

[trevhagl]

where i live the MP has a 20,000 majority , there is no way, not even with Gordon Brown and his workhouse and tough love rhetoric, that that could be overturned, so all of us who hate New Labour haven't got a say. And like someone else says, the present system is determined only by marginal seats.

 

[Stavrogin]

Well, I just read this...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/02/jeremey-hunt-conservative-conference-cuts

Neatly done, digger.

If I didn't already think a tory government would be a bad thing....

 

[ericjarvis]

PR will only make a difference if there are smaller parties that might really make a real difference. Otherwise it's simply handing more power to the party apparatchiks and taking it away from the voters.

Currently the establishment own party politics. Almost nothing happens through any of the main political parties that might make any progressive difference. I don't see any prospect of improving things if we attempt to play the establishment's game. That means breaking the grip of the party machines. The more they try to play up the election as Brown versus Cameron versus Whatsisname, the more I want to see it being a case of each and every MP chosen for their unwillingness to blindly follow any of the buggers.

 

[Quartz]

PR is not the way to go. It will destroy what's left of the link between the MPs and their constituents, making them more concerned with their standing within their Party. Can you name all your MEPs? But First Past The Post does need reform. I'm in favour of preference voting: you have one ballot slip and you vote in favour of all the candidates you like; the candidate with the most votes wins.

Say you've got the Tories, Labour, the Lib Dems, and the BNP standing in an election. You could vote for each of the first three and not the BNP. So the anti-BNP vote doesn't get split.

 

[Beanburger]

I'm in favour of preference voting: you have one ballot slip and you vote in favour of all the candidates you like; the candidate with the most votes wins.

That's commonly referred to as the Alternative Vote system, and it's the one that Gord is advocating putting to a referendum.

 

[trevhagl]

PR is not the way to go. It will destroy what's left of the link between the MPs and their constituents, making them more concerned with their standing within their Party. Can you name all your MEPs? But First Past The Post does need reform. I'm in favour of preference voting: you have one ballot slip and you vote in favour of all the candidates you like; the candidate with the most votes wins.

Say you've got the Tories, Labour, the Lib Dems, and the BNP standing in an election. You could vote for each of the first three and not the BNP. So the anti-BNP vote doesn't get split.

that has gotta be the best way. There's been times in other elections where i have wanted to vote for 2 or more candidates but....

 

[Quartz]

That's commonly referred to as the Alternative Vote system, and it's the one that Gord is advocating putting to a referendum.

Sorry, I gave it the wrong name and should have provided a link. Mea culpa. Alternative Vote is not what I'm proposing; Approval Voting is.

Approval Voting is nice and simple, easily understood. No complex mathematics or agonising whether you should place candidates A & B at positions 4 and 5 or 5 and 4. And it extends to multi-member constituencies. And it preserves the link between the elected and the electorate.

 

[greenman]

My prediction in event of a Tory Government :

"Red Tories" around Cameron initially stick to some of civil liberties and reform pledges, but this goes out of the window with the first excuse (the first bombing, riot, act of sabotage or whatever) and it is back to normal for the national security state.

When the going gets really tough - either because of resistance to their cuts programme or/and deterioration of the economy/finances/energy crisis etc, the Cameronites are deposed by the neo-libs around Osborne or some other figurehead for a more rawly Thatcherite programme and more overt social authoritarianism. This would be a weird echo of the Blairite/Brownite power struggle.

The most important thing for most of us is to organise resistance on the ground in our workplaces and communities to the attacks and threats now likely whoever wins the election. If we can elect a handful of left and green MPs as a "Parliamentary expeditionary force" as well, fine.

 

[jiggajagga]

He said a Cameron government would scrap the New Deal and "through tax reform and deregulation" help employers take on new staff and encourage the creation of businesses. ( To give millionairres more )

And he told the News of the World that he would embark on changes to the welfare system that had proved too radical for Labour.

Under the Get Britain Working scheme, Mr Cameron said he would give the long-term unemployed "the personalised support they need to get back to work". ( like a whip )

The Sunday Times said the initiative, to be unveiled on Monday, will be an "assault on the dependency culture" by copying ideas pioneered in the United States. ( The much proven wrong Wisconsin model )

The paper said most people who have been unemployed for more than six months, including the disabled and single mothers, would have their benefits cut if they refused to join privatised training schemes. ( If fit young men and women can't find jobs how can mums with kids and the disabled? )

It said the government would employ private training firms to prepare the unemployed for work. ( Private is about profit 1st, 2nd and third...Not people. )

Fucking Fascist pigs!!!

 

[Quartz]

When the going gets really tough - either because of resistance to their cuts programme or/and deterioration of the economy/finances/energy crisis etc, the Cameronites are deposed by the neo-libs around Osborne or some other figurehead for a more rawly Thatcherite programme and more overt social authoritarianism.

Oddly, the 'leader-in-waiting' is David Davis, and he's demonstrated that civil liberties will be safe with him. Unless, of course, it was all a cynical stunt.

Cameron worries me. I think there's a good chance that he's a weak and ineffectual leader in the mould of John Major. Remember his behaviour over grammar schools?

 

[Awesome Wells]

I'd rather shoot myself than live under Chris Grayling as home secretary and his reactionary populist bollocks policies.

But then I'd rather shoot Chris Grayling

 

[Awesome Wells]

The Sunday Times said the initiative, to be unveiled on Monday, will be an "assault on the dependency culture" by copying ideas pioneered in the United States. ( The much proven wrong Wisconsin model )

There we go again with the hardline rhetoric. It's always something aggressive and adversarial. Not once do we try actually working with and supporting people.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Cameron on Andrew Marr at the moment. What a vile, superficial scumbag Dave is. The millionaire's best friend.

 

[Beanburger]

Yawn. How many times have stupid politicians tried this? And hey, really smart doing it while unemployment is so high, making the whole scheme exceptionally fucking expensive. Idiots.

 

[Awesome Wells]

is he doing that thing where he emphasizes a point by pressing his thumb to his forefinger like the 'ok' gesture?

 

[Meltingpot]

Thats the chap - I nearly put Morgan Freeman -
Who is a fine actor but has a somewhat unproven record as an economist - as sorting out rocks hammers and ciggerettes in Shawshank Prison probably doesn't count.

On the other hand, I quite like the idea of Clint Eastwood as William Munny (in "Unforgiven") showing up at the HoC one day with his gun and saying, "Who owns this shithole?" That'd be real people power.

 

[Meltingpot]

Dont think thats true. What is needed is Proportional Representation, and the breaking of the two party political system. If Labour hadn't broken their 97 pledge to introduce PR things would be a lot better now. Party politics still has a long way to go, its just the democratic infastructure that needs updating. I still say vote LibDem, in order to 1: crack the two party system, and 2: get closer to PR.

Yep, I agree.

 

[Quartz]

On the other hand, I quiote like the idea of Clint Eastwood as William Munny (in "Unforgiven") showing up at the HoC one day with his gun and saying, "Who owns this shithole?" That'd be real people power.

Too few bullets.

 

[jonajuna]

cant be any worse, they are all lying, pocket lining feckers

although at least with the tories you have an iota of a chance of benefiting from the subsequent boom before bust they bring

with labour its just bust across the board

 

[Awesome Wells]

But just how likely is a tory government, in all honesty (a word i'd never thought i could fit into the same sentence as the word tory)?

 

[Maidmarian]

cant be any worse, they are all lying, pocket lining feckers

although at least with the tories you have an iota of a chance of benefiting from the subsequent boom before bust they bring

with labour its just bust across the board

Oh yes it CAN ! <panto time again>

 

[smokedout]

interesting post on indymedia

 

[Quartz]

But just how likely is a tory government, in all honesty (a word i'd never thought i could fit into the same sentence as the word tory)?

Not as likely as many think: due to the organisation of the constituencies and the effect of the Lib Dems, they need a huge swing.

 

[jonajuna]

But just how likely is a tory government, in all honesty (a word i'd never thought i could fit into the same sentence as the word tory)?

torys are leading in the polls by 10-15% consistently since the summer

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8280050.stm

 

[Stoat Boy]

All I can see on this post is people who have spent the last 6 years saying how much they loathe what Labour have done trying to justify themselves in being the sort of morons that Labour take them for and trotting along and voting for them AGAIN despite the illegal wars, the sucking up to the Uber Capitalists and the subsequent lumbering all of us with a national debt in the tens of thousands per person.

Dont get me wrong, I fucking loathe those running New Labour but you have to respect their reading of you lot as bitches who will piss themselves at just the threat of a Conservative government.

 

[Awesome Wells]

who will you be voting for? I certainly didn't vote Labour last time. Voted Lib Dem. I think i've voted labour once and tory never.

in general elections this is.

But i'm beginnign to think that even labour would be the slightly lesser of two considerable evils if the choice was between them and the tories, whose true colours are now really starting to shine thorugh again (just in time it seems).