Wot no Marxism 2008 thread?
- Thread starter The Black Hand
- Start date
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
fairy nough
dennisr
the acceptable face
I bet you'll got it now, nothing to wank about tonight.
unlike you it would seem?....
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
everyone bites so easily
The Black Hand
Unclean
everyone bites so easily
Some don't need poking.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
everyone needs a good poking
The Black Hand
Unclean
Everyone needs a poke true.
Grego Morales
New Member
Anyone go to this?
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
Have you got Bob Light's talk on Jim Allen from a few years back? It dates from the same year Jim Allen died.
I had it on cassette, and it was an excellent talk.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
I went to 2 meetings on Saturday.
october_lost
It's not hip any more...
Had David Hillard in attendance, did anyone see him?
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
You can get by with just poking, as opposed to being poked, too.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
yeah, he was good. He made quite a good point about not wishing to speak too much, but rather wanting to listen and learn to the experience of London activists, particularly young people, he was also keen to distance the Panthers from a culture of guns, arguing that the aim was to bury the guns, and that they were never about guns, and people who seized on this aspect of their history have failed to understand them. He saw their welfare programmes and social work as being their lasting legacy.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
When I was in the SWP, a project worker from a homeless shelter who used to come to a lot of meetings and protests suggested that our SWP branch cooked a meal once a month at the shelter, commenting that the religious groups come in regularly wouldn't it be great if the socialists got a profile as helping the homeless. A lot of us thought this was a great idea, but our organiser ("we're not a charity") and probably the homeless shelter management weren't enamoured of the idea.
There are several reasons the SWP don't get involved in welfare programmes I assume. 1) The SWP is quite small, so has to prioritise a limited range of activism. 2) a political perspective of orientating to the organised working class and narrow conception of politics.
The SWP criticise the Panthers for relating to the "guys on the block" and the idea that the "lumpen-proletariate is a resevoir of revolutionary potential" rather than relating to the organised working class (in trade unions, for exampel). In a sense, there is a certain truth in this, that organised workers have more power in society than, say, the unemployed, and building a lasting organisation from the lumpen proletariate is difficult, hence the Panthers spectacular growth and speedy decline.
However, this perspective can lead to crass economism, as witnessed in Lindsey German's attack in Sex, Class & Socialism on the feminist movement in relating to places where women are weak - women's aid centre. rape crisis centres etc. rather than where they are strong, in the unions etc. Of course, there was a phenomena of self-help activists being incorporated into the state and council, but German's perspective seemed flawed to me. Her argument was collective struggle in the feminist movement had been fragmented into individualist issues, but domestic violence and rape can be organised around in a collective way. This perspective has meant that the revolutionary left has been marginalised from the women's movement rather than leading it.
Or I recall at an SWP conference it being argued on Scotland (presumably in polemic with the SSP) around Asylum and Refugee issues that the way forward shouldn't be activists trying to substitute themselves for absent or denied welfare services, but rather building a political movement to put pressure on the Scottish parliament.
This seemed weak to me, as the two approaches didn't seem mutually exclusive but rather inconnected. For example, solidarity work such as anti-deportation campaigns can often be a way of involving the wider community.
This seems an ingrained approach in the SWP, which has meant that it has missed the boat in several key working class struggles. For example, initially opposing solidarity campaigns with the Miners as "radical oxfam" or underestimating the potential for a mass non-payment campaign against the Poll Tax based on a mistaken understanding of the dynamics of working class communities.
In my opinion this economism of focusing only on the organised working class is mistaken. By radical social work and community work, the revolutionary left can begin to appeal to the moral idealism of many people and be seen as the ones who stand up for the most weak and marginalised in our society ie. start to become 'tribunes of the oppressed'. Otherwise, the revolutionary left is seen as being a talking shop and lacks social roots, as it is seen as fly-by-night.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
However, this argument makes less sense at time (such as now) when there is precious little of that organised working class and what remains of it is very weak.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Rebuilding the union movement is a vital task, given the power that organised labour has within capitalism, and using that power to support other struggles is very important. Union organisation is weak, but their are small signs of growth and an increase in combativeness of working class organisations. The union movement is the best weapon for social and economic justice that we have.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
I agree with all that, but I no longer view it as possible in the UK due to fundamental (and very negative) changes in the structure of society and the class itself. The boat was missed and the UK has entered de-industrialised late capitalism - a phase which sees the atomisation of the class and where the system has more emphasis on unemployment rather than work. The union movement - or what remains of it - is a largely a tame, co-opted establishment joke when compared to emerging, anti-establishment union movements elsewhere in the world.
The union movement here is unsalvageable and unusable. Pretty much defunct and serves no real purpose apart from providing a career for union officials.
Poster - yes we need a better and more accountable trade union leaders and their bureuacracy. It is a disgrace that Unison are witch hunting very good activists.
As for unions being lame - well on 16 & 17 July Unison members, PCS members will be on strike - more PCS strikes later in July plus maybe Unite.
PCS itself having a ballot (and if won) in the autumn - a national civil service strike. Oh and let us not forget the tankers drivers action and winning big pay rises. You may feel that trade unions are on the wane. Some of us are involved to make unions more positive and fighting unions.
As for unions being lame - well on 16 & 17 July Unison members, PCS members will be on strike - more PCS strikes later in July plus maybe Unite.
PCS itself having a ballot (and if won) in the autumn - a national civil service strike. Oh and let us not forget the tankers drivers action and winning big pay rises. You may feel that trade unions are on the wane. Some of us are involved to make unions more positive and fighting unions.
october_lost
It's not hip any more...
I can't help but feel this cherry picking. Essentially a communist method would look at the needs of the class in its entirety and I would agree with your conclusion, sometimes cornering certain struggles can lead to various kinds of inroads.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
You'll never get accountable TU leaders as the TU structures and entrenched officials are totally embedded within the establishment now.
I read somewhere these being likened to risidual rockpools of TU activity from an ocean that dried out years ago. A lot of those disputes have been dragging on for years - with the govt just ignoring all the strike action. Where agreements are won, it'll be interesting to see if implementation is not subsequently stalled, dragged out and then quietly reneged upon. And I still hear too many stories of sites where the "strike" consists of the branch officials only while everyone else prances into work as usual.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
"communist method would look at the needs of the class in its entirety"
true, but small organisations have to "bend the stick" towards certain struggles rather than spread themselves too thinly to be able to achieve anything. But it strikes me that the trotskyist left lacks roots in working class communities and needs a re-think. Of course, traditionally the trotskyist left might not have had to organise in these areas as they were already occupide by a mass social democratic party, their were whole networks of trade unions, tenants groups, labour party branches that had grassroots presence etc
My opinion is that for trotskyists to become more rooted in society that taking up these issues of radical community and social work, social welfare could be fruitful.
Interesting points from Udo Erasmus, but surely it is not the job of the left to be a charity or social workers?!
october_lost
It's not hip any more...
This came up over a discussion over the weekend. I think under the existing climate with low class struggle and a number of the trotskyist groups in auto-pilot I think they will never attain a great sphere of influence, because they still think they're the leadership of the class, despite the fact theres very little of the class to actually lead.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Class struggle is at a low ebb but is rising with increased strikes across the public sector, as we move into a period where poverty, class and inequality are going to be posed more sharply it is almost certain that class conflict will rise - we're seeing rising fuel prices, food prices, electricity and gas bills, council tax bills etc. alongside the credit cruch this is going to shape the colour of the coming years. Actually the working class is still here, it's changed and more fragmented, but the basic relations of production remain a constant. Evidently, class consciousness is at all time low ebb, and people are far mroe atomised and individualsied than ever before. I recall reading Raymond Williams who described the working class being a collective culture and the middle and ruling class as being individualised, this no longer seems to be true.
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