World War Three?

[Lock&Light]

Quoted for posterity.

You are not usually a shit-stirrer, VP.

 

[nino_savatte]

I was contributing to this thread before nino popped in. I then pointed out to him and all who want to read that the Yanks fighting for Israel are Israeli citizens, while the alleged Iranians in Lebabnon are not Lebanese.

What total and utter dishonesty. Furthermore you have no proof for your allegations that there are "Iranians fighting as Lebanese" and I pulled you up on that. Tough shit if you don't like it.

 

[hipipol]

Wot???????

But this war is not primarily against states, it is against certain ideas that are prevelent among some Muslims--the question of how prevelent is of course arguable. Such ideas include the notion that the Umma is under attack by infidels and that the Muslim individual has a duty to defend it, by violence if necessary, that the state of Israel ought to be destroyed, that the secular and pro-Western governments of Islamic countries ought to be overthrown and so on. This war has been going on within many Islamic countries for a long time, and now it is spreading into wars of invasion and occupation, as well as into the Western democracies. So maybe the comparison with previous world wars only holds in terms of the global scope of the present conflict.

All of this is so misguided its hard to know where to start
Not against states? WTF that means you accept the notion that anyone who resisted the US invasion of Afghanistan are "unlawful combatants" and deserve to be in Gitmo. It was a Sovriegn State
As was Iraq
the Palestinians haeld elections, are supposed to be a sovreign (haha) state, yet the Jewish Colonists kill them at will, destroy anything they feel like and hold them in the vaste concentration camp that is the Gaza Strip
"certain ideas that are prevelent among some Muslims" aye, the beleif that they opught to safe in their own homes, that their borders should be respected, that they have the right of self-determination - what unusual views these odd people have
" Such ideas include the notion that the Umma is under attack by infidels and that the Muslim individual has a duty to defend it, by violence if necessary"
So if your country was under attack, you'd stay home and pick your feet eh?
After 9/11 the Yanks with the conivance of the Blairthing conflates the actions of a twisted Saudi git into an attack on the entire West, Moms apple Pie, whatever tosh they felt would sell their barbaric response. Muslims are not being attacked, is that what you think? Have you actually been awake any of these last few years?
"that the state of Israel ought to be destroyed" - well based on their experience they would think that. They could wrap it up in a bunch of platitudes to make some feel better, a la Blairthing style, but whichever way, it ends up piles of dead. No better and no worse than the crew leading us
"that the secular and pro-Western governments of Islamic countries ought to be overthrown and so on." Do you mean the Kleptocracy that is Egypt, or perhaps the Feudal Sates of Saudi, Kuwait etc? Secular, pro western and police state go hand in hand you see. The wholly democratic states were Lebanon and Palestine, look what happened to them, that only leaves Jordan and they cant pursue much by the way of opening things up or they'll got the way of Lebanon
"This war has been going on within many Islamic countries for a long time, and now it is spreading into wars of invasion and occupation, as well as into the Western democracies" The only attacks as such on the West have come since the invasions, can you spot a link?
Get the idea that there is some fundemental re-run of the fucking Crusades out of your head. The Knights Templar no longer exists, neither do any other of the "Orders". Islam is not seeking you out and most dont give a flyer about what you do. Some nutters, many originally trained by the CIA however are using it as the smoke screen for their own activities.

 

[phildwyer]

All of this is so misguided its hard to know where to start
Not against states? WTF that means you accept the notion that anyone who resisted the US invasion of Afghanistan are "unlawful combatants" and deserve to be in Gitmo. It was a Sovriegn State
As was Iraq
the Palestinians haeld elections, are supposed to be a sovreign (haha) state, yet the Jewish Colonists kill them at will, destroy anything they feel like and hold them in the vaste concentration camp that is the Gaza Strip
"certain ideas that are prevelent among some Muslims" aye, the beleif that they opught to safe in their own homes, that their borders should be respected, that they have the right of self-determination - what unusual views these odd people have
" Such ideas include the notion that the Umma is under attack by infidels and that the Muslim individual has a duty to defend it, by violence if necessary"
So if your country was under attack, you'd stay home and pick your feet eh?
After 9/11 the Yanks with the conivance of the Blairthing conflates the actions of a twisted Saudi git into an attack on the entire West, Moms apple Pie, whatever tosh they felt would sell their barbaric response. Muslims are not being attacked, is that what you think? Have you actually been awake any of these last few years?
"that the state of Israel ought to be destroyed" - well based on their experience they would think that. They could wrap it up in a bunch of platitudes to make some feel better, a la Blairthing style, but whichever way, it ends up piles of dead. No better and no worse than the crew leading us
"that the secular and pro-Western governments of Islamic countries ought to be overthrown and so on." Do you mean the Kleptocracy that is Egypt, or perhaps the Feudal Sates of Saudi, Kuwait etc? Secular, pro western and police state go hand in hand you see. The wholly democratic states were Lebanon and Palestine, look what happened to them, that only leaves Jordan and they cant pursue much by the way of opening things up or they'll got the way of Lebanon
"This war has been going on within many Islamic countries for a long time, and now it is spreading into wars of invasion and occupation, as well as into the Western democracies" The only attacks as such on the West have come since the invasions, can you spot a link?
Get the idea that there is some fundemental re-run of the fucking Crusades out of your head. The Knights Templar no longer exists, neither do any other of the "Orders". Islam is not seeking you out and most dont give a flyer about what you do. Some nutters, many originally trained by the CIA however are using it as the smoke screen for their own activities.

1. Your entire post is based on the assumption that I think the ideas against wish the US, UK and Israel are fighting are erroneous. But nowhere have I suggested any such thing. Please read more carefully in future.

2. I repeat that this is not primarily a war against states but a war against ideas. Those who hold (or at any rate act on) those ideas will be attacked no matter what state they live under. That is why this is truly a world war.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Here's something that might be illuminating. This is from one of a group of military intellectuals who are highly critical of the neo-cons, mostly from the right rather than the left. This guy (an Israeli military history prof) is arguing that the particular squabbles of the neo-cons apart, what's happening at the moment is part of what might be a wider transition.

I'm not sure how much of it I actually agree with, but I found it fairly thought-provoking and it seems to fit the context of this thread a bit.

Contrary to the fears of George Orwell in 1984, modern technology, in the form of nuclear weapons on the one hand and unprecedented means for communication and transportation on the other, has not resulted in the establishment of unshakable totalitarian dictatorships. Instead of thought control we have CNN and, which many regimes consider almost as dangerous, Aaron Spelling; instead of unpersons, Amnesty International. The net effect has been to make governments lose power in favor of organizations that are not sovereign and are not states.

Some of these organizations stand above the state—for example, the European Common Market, the West European Union, and, above all, the United Nations, which since the Gulf War has begun to play a role akin to that of the medieval popes in authorizing or prohibiting a state from waging international war. Others are of a completely different kind, such as international bodies, multinational corporations, the media, and various terrorist organizations some of which can barely be told apart from gangs of ordinary criminals. What they all have in common is that they either assume some of the functions of the state or manage to escape its control. All also have this in common: being either much larger than states or without geographical borders, they are better positioned to take advantage of recent developments in transportation and communications. The result is that their power seems to be growing while that of the state declines.

To sum up, the 300-year period that opened at Westphalia and during which the state was the most important organization in which people lived—first in Europe, then in other places—is coming to an end. Nobody knows the significance of the transition from a system of sovereign, territorial, legally equal states to one that takes greater cognizance of the new realities; it is likely to be eventful and, as is already the case in many places, quite possibly bloody. Still, it is worth recalling that the state's most remarkable products to date have been Hiroshima and Auschwitz; the former could never have been built by any organization but a state (and the most powerful one, at that), whereas the latter was above all an exercise in bureaucratic management. Whatever the future may bring, it cannot be much worse than the past. For those who regret and fear the passing away of the world with which we are familiar, let that be their consolation.

The Fate of the State

 

[Lock&Light]

What total and utter dishonesty. Furthermore you have no proof for your allegations that there are "Iranians fighting as Lebanese" and I pulled you up on that. Tough shit if you don't like it.

Fool.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Meanwhile, George Will says:

Foreign policy "realists" considered Middle East stability the goal. The realists' critics, who regard realism as reprehensibly unambitious, considered stability the problem. That problem has been solved.

source

 

[Aldebaran]

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Koran 9:29)​

1. First of all: There is *no* "and feel themselves subdued" anywhere. Secondly there is no mentioning of "even if they are" either. (The text says *among the* People of the Book.)

2. Exegeses (Ar. tafsir)

These taxes provoked a very vivid protest among the Jews, reason why their attitude towards it is described. Submissively hence has to be given the meaning that they have to pay it without showing arrogance and without protests.
Tabari comments that this verse was revealed at the time of the Prophet’s expedition against Tabûk on the Byzantine territory. Non-Muslims didn’t have to fight the enemy: therefore taxes imposed to pay for their protection by the Muslims.

Just to let you know what you talk about.

salaam.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

The term "Second World War" was coined in the 1920's in the Kellogg-Briand pact, and was in familiar use from the outbreak of war in 1939.

I heard this recently..

"Sir JOHN KEEGAN (Military Historian): I don't think they called it World War II until it was nearly over.

RAZ: That's the eminent military historian, Sir John Keegan. While references were being made to a world war, it was only in September 1945 when President Truman officially designated the war World War II. By then, it was over."

source

it was a discussed on the radio the other day on NPR (broardly similar to Radio 4 and regarded as relatively impartial for the US)

 

[ZAMB]

And wouldn't it make more sense to think of it that way, rather than as a "war on terror"? If so, who is on what side? US, UK, Israel and their Quislings on one, the Muslim world on the other is what it looks like to me. EU and BRIC neutral at present.

You can't really call it a war on terror, either, because it seems to me that only one side is allowed to define what 'terror' is - and, as far as I can see, 'terror' is any resistance to the USA and its allies taking control of the worlds' natural resources, which they seem to think they have a right to - regardless of whose country they're in.

 

[Aldebaran]

But this war is not primarily against states, it is against certain ideas that are prevelent among some Muslims--the question of how prevelent is of course arguable.

You forget to mention to murderous lunatics that invade and massacre in sovereign nations, driven by their "certain ideas" that are surely dominant among "certain Christians" and "certain Jews".

Such ideas include the notion that the Umma is under attack by infidels and that the Muslim individual has a duty to defend it, by violence if necessary, that the state of Israel ought to be destroyed, that the secular and pro-Western governments of Islamic countries ought to be overthrown and so on.

Replace everything which you want refering to "Muslims" with "USA and Israel" and we get a more complete picture of the stage.

This war has been going on within many Islamic countries for a long time, and now it is spreading into wars of invasion and occupation, as well as into the Western democracies.

No it is not; It is advertized as such by the USA/UK/Israel en by their proxies in what is commonly called "The West".

So maybe the comparison with previous world wars only holds in terms of the global scope of the present conflict.

There is no "global scope" at all. It is narrowed down to where the USA/The West/Israel has economical and geostrategical interests.
Add to that their (for them necessary) fears of China and Russia getting their share of the cake and you - again - paint a more correct picture.
Add to all that the fear of the Saudis and some others for Iran (and the various, often intertwined interests of non US Western and non Western nations there too) and again you get a step closer to a more complete map.

salaam.

 

[Azrael23]

World War III is coming, and it has little to do with oil.

New World Order.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

So this is what it feels like when a golden age comes to an end.

Welcome back.

 

[snorbury]

yeh we missed it

 

[nino_savatte]

Tin foil hat anyone?

Or how about one of those sandwich boards that says "The End Is Nigh"?

 

[snorbury]

the end is nigh

 

[Bob_the_lost]

the end is nigh

*painics*

 

[k_s]

the end is nigh

Thank god for that. If we're all dead inside 20 years then maybe the polar bears will be ok.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Thank god for that. If we're all dead inside 20 years then maybe the polar bears will be ok.

I wouldn't be so sure of that if i were you

 

[snouty warthog]

Tin foil hat anyone?
Or how about one of those sandwich boards that says "The End Is Nigh"?

y'know nino, to quote a certain mr Morrissey, "that joke isn't funny anymore" too close to home and too near the bone indeed... (not an attack on you, by the way, just- I can't laugh at that anymore. I see the future, and it's a dark place...)

No, WW3 not quite yet, but if it happens, there will be civil war in it too

I agree, hipipol... WW3 begins after the next (massive) so-called terrorist attack, with the invasion of Iran. I reckon that's the beginning. George Bush is already calling it world war three, and he knows his own plans...

this is the big one. the ultimate aim of this long war is a one-world fascist government. death camps, surveillance through microchip implants, neighbours informing on one another, it's all coming. it will end with the destruction of most of the earth and it's population... followed by a new enlightened age which is created by the survivors...

you (the reader) may laugh at my words now, but when you see the signs, remember what I have said. in 20 years, the truth in my words will be very much apparent...

peace to all.

 

[43mhz]

you (the reader) may laugh at my words now, but when you see the signs, remember what I have said

Unfortunately, I think the signs are already there

 

[kyser_soze]

you (the reader) may laugh at my words now, but when you see the signs, remember what I have said. in 20 years, the truth in my words will be very much apparent...

this is the big one. the ultimate aim of this long war is a one-world fascist government. death camps, surveillance through microchip implants, neighbours informing on one another, it's all coming. it will end with the destruction of most of the earth and it's population... followed by a new enlightened age which is created by the survivors...

Yup, I'm laughing.

I think just about everyone and their dog has been predicting this since the earliest computers and transplant surgery! What exactly makes you think that a global facist order will take over the world then? What are the 'signs' of this then Snouty?

The US is going through a period of severe growing pains, coupled with it's decline as a world power, and may well start to slip back if the Xtian Right have their way - but on the reverse of that, the Kansas school board have finally got rid of the creationists and re-elected people who think that it shouldn't be taught in science lessons. Just because the neo-cons are shouting the loudest at the moment it doesn't follow that their star will shine much longer - McCain is the Republican front runner in the party for the next nomination, and while yes it means another republican in the White House, at least this one isn't a bible thumping rapturist!

Where else do you see signs of the NWO Snouty? When the binmen come to collect the rubbish.

 

[nino_savatte]

y'know nino, to quote a certain mr Morrissey, "that joke isn't funny anymore" too close to home and too near the bone indeed... (not an attack on you, by the way, just- I can't laugh at that anymore. I see the future, and it's a dark place...)

.

I think I need a little more convincing before I accept that WWIII is around the corner.

 

[kyser_soze]

I think I need a little more convincing before I accept that WWIII is around the corner.

But what about the global facist state, with microchip implant controls!!!

IT'S COMING I TELLS YA!!!

 

[nino_savatte]

But what about the global facist state, with microchip implant controls!!!

IT'S COMING I TELLS YA!!!

Oh aye, I forgot about that. I ought to get my daily dose of Alex Jones/Jeff Rense before I become one of 'them'.

 

[snouty warthog]

hmmm, I am kind of impervious to mockery on this one, cos I have already seen how it ends.

a man shall kill his brother for a scrap of food, or a sip of water, so great shall be his hunger... the light of the sun shall disappear from the sky, and the days be passed in darkness. and men shall roam the streets in packs, like wild dogs, looking to kill even other men for food... and the shining cities lie in ruins... many weep in despair at the destruction of the earth due to the folly of mankind.

and then, there is a new dawn. new meadows spring forth on the earth, birdsong is heard once again... mankind, now greatly humbled, regains hir place within the balance of nature, as a servant of the earth, and not it's false and corrupt master...

peace

 

[kyser_soze]

Wow, that's pretty biblical! And slightly trite as well - Revelation does far better end of the world stuff, so why not just quote the Bible?

Just out of interest tho - if there's a global facist state, and we're all implanted with mind control chips, how is this final war gonna start? I mean, if the state can control us all, and it's a global entity, that means that it would be fighting itself, which would be hard given that we'll all be chip controlled automatons.

And I really doubt that after say, 1000 years of scrapping around in the ruins, having re-established some kind of society that humans will happily continue being a 'servant of nature' - not that we ever were as a species but hey...

 

[snouty warthog]

yeah, it is pretty biblical. a bit of it corresponds with revelations, where the moon becomes the colour of blood... but I am not sure what number that particular bit comes under...

trite, I don't know. it's pretty horrific, the way I see it. you mean the second part? if you see it that way, maybe it is... I don't wanna just focus on doom and gloom though- the destruction is neccessary to clear the way for a more positive form of society...

er, I don't know about mind control chips. I think that chips will be used for surveillance. can a chip control your thoughts? I don't know, others probably know more about this than me.

I don't think that mankind will be 'scrapping around in the ruins' for 1000 years- who could bear that? with no sunlight reaching earth, we'd all die out pretty fast anyway... so this is some kind of short but horrific transition period I guess...

why don't I just quote the bible? because I am speaking of what I personally have seen... if my words do not have the force of a Biblical prophet, forgive me- I am not a Biblical prophet...! I am just an ordinary guy, who has been shown some of the things that will happen... I wish I hadn't, in a way. I am kinda depressed by it, at the moment...

 

[nino_savatte]

Is there a full moon today or something?

 

[ska invita]

BUMP

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I was going to start a similar one and its interesting to compare now to 2006 when the thread started

Curious if anyone has changed opinions since 2006

Its late now, will add thoughts tomorrow...