World grain stocks running low.

[nino_savatte]

I have been a strident critic of biofuels since the outset of this thread.

You still missed my point.

 

[david dissadent]

Do I need to draw you a picture?

Let me frame this reply as a question: in the pre-industrial age, was there over-production and if so, how much waste was there as a result? Were needs (that previously didn't exist) stimulated in order to create new markets for the sale of useless commodities?

Yes the spice trade is clearly pre-industrial and aimed at creating a need that did not exist in Europe because spice did not exist. The same could be said for tobacco.

Your definition of waste is pretty close to being deep green. Anything that is not absolutely nescissary for life is waste.....

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes the spice trade is clearly pre-industrial and aimed at creating a need that did not exist in Europe because spice did not exist. The same could be said for tobacco.

Your definition of waste is pretty close to being deep green. Anything that is not absolutely nescissary for life is waste.....

Farmers were not paid subsidies to over-produce.

Your last comment misses my point by several parsecs.

 

[david dissadent]

Farmers were not paid subsidies to over-produce.

Your last comment misses my point by several parsecs.

No it answered the last sentence/ question in your post. Just not the answer you wanted.

 

[nino_savatte]

No it answered the last sentence/ question in your post. Just not the answer you wanted.

Just like hammering nails into a blancmange.

 

[david dissadent]

Farmers were not paid subsidies to over-produce.

Over production was not possible until the advent of industrial scale agriculture with mechanisation and fertilisers. It is a function of technology not economics.

Currently EU farmers are paid not to produce and to leave fields fallow.

 

[nino_savatte]

Over production was not possible until the advent of industrial scale agriculture with mechanisation and fertilisers. It is a function of technology not economics.

Currently EU farmers are paid not to produce and to leave fields fallow.

Not necessarily. The drive to stimulate needs that don't exist leads inevitably to waste.

 

[david dissadent]

Not necessarily. The drive to stimulate needs that don't exist leads inevitably to waste.

We've just been here..... "needs that dont exist" is a matter of perspective. Alcohol is a need that does not exist.

 

[nino_savatte]

We've just been here..... "needs that dont exist" is a matter of perspective. Alcohol is a need that does not exist.

No "we" haven't and this shows how unwilling you are to think and to discuss without trying to control the discourse. Perspective doesn't enter into it.

 

[david dissadent]

No "we" haven't and this shows how unwilling you are to think and to discuss without trying to control the discourse. Perspective doesn't enter into it.

"Needs do not exist" is a matter of perspective. One mans need is another necessity: perspective.

 

[nino_savatte]

Needs do not exist is a matter of perspective. One mans need is another necessity: perspective.

Jesus wept, what are you talking about now? You need to go away and do some reading.

 

[david dissadent]

Jesus wept, what are you talking about now? You need to go away and do some reading.

Errr no. You claim waste comes from stimulating unnecessary desires. This is a vacuous point unless you can clearly define what is necessary.

 

[david dissadent]

Dig for Victory....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7284011.stm

 

[nino_savatte]

Errr no. You claim waste comes from stimulating unnecessary desires. This is a vacuous point unless you can clearly define what is necessary.

You still don't understand what is meant by "stimulating needs that don't exist" and the relationship that clause has to the production of commodities.

Ever hear of the saying "keeping up with the Jones"?

The only one making vacuous points is you, chum.

 

[david dissadent]

You still don't understand what is meant by "stimulating needs that don't exist" and the relationship that clause has to the production of commodities.

Ever hear of the saying "keeping up with the Jones"?

The only one making vacuous points is you, chum.

You probibly argue with alot of people dont you. Probibly end up with a few on ignore list as well.

These needs that dont exist, what are they? Cars? Washing machines? Light bulbs? All of these one did not exist and now are considered very much non luxuary items. Empty undefined rhetoric is no substite for facts.

 

[nino_savatte]

You probibly argue with alot of people dont you. Probibly end up with a few on ignore list as well.

These needs that dont exist, what are they? Cars? Washing machines? Light bulbs? All of these one did not exist and now are considered very much non luxuary items. Empty undefined rhetoric is no substite for facts.

You still have your fingers in your ears. Have you always been this ignorant or did it take years of practice?

 

[david dissadent]

You still have your fingers in your ears. Have you always been this ignorant or did it take years of practice?

Ears of practice.

 

[nino_savatte]

You can't deal with the point, so you try to crack funny or smear. Pathetic.

Tell me something, do you really need the latest iPod?

 

[nino_savatte]

Have you ever heard of commodity fetishism? No? I didn't think so.

 

[david dissadent]

You can't deal with the point, so you try to crack funny or smear. Pathetic.

Tell me something, do you really need the latest iPod?

Do you need a light bulb?

 

[nino_savatte]

Do you need a light bulb?

Do you need a brain? Yes, I think you do, because you're quite clearly labouring without one.

 

[david dissadent]

Do you need a brain? Yes, I think you do, because you're quite clearly labouring without one.

Much of the world gets by without light bulbs. It is not a need, it is a luxuary in many places. Somewhere between the light bulb and the latest ipod you clearly will draw a line at what is a need and what is a luxuary.

How about an older MP3 player? Or a TV, or a car or a washing machine.... where oh where does need become luxuary?

 

[nino_savatte]

Much of the world gets by without light bulbs. It is not a need, it is a luxuary in many places. Somewhere between the light bulb and the latest ipod you clearly will draw a line at what is a need and what is a luxuary.

How about an older MP3 player? Or a TV, or a car or a washing machine.... where oh where does need become luxuary?

You're still missing the point...and rather deliberately imv. Have a read of Marx's The Fetishism of Commodities and the Secret Thereof and then get back to me.

Perhaps you think the planet's productive priority is to produce more Transformers toys and Paris Hilton souvenir dinner plates.

 

[david dissadent]

You're still missing the point...and rather deliberately imv. Have a read of Marx's The Fetishism of Commodities and the Secret Thereof and then get back to me.

Perhaps you think the planet's productive priority is to produce more Transformers toys and Paris Hilton souvenir dinner plates.

We shall agree then that each think the other a clueless moron.

 

[nino_savatte]

We shall agree then that each think the other a clueless moron.

Whatever. <yawn>.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

. . .
Let me frame this reply as a question: in the pre-industrial age, was there over-production and if so, how much waste was there as a result? Were needs (that previously didn't exist) stimulated in order to create new markets for the sale of useless commodities?

I'd say "yes" (thinking in terms of the Roman Empire, the medieval Church and possibly the Crusades for example). As, I guess from the tone of your comment, you'd be arguing "No" it seems to me that to answer your question to your satisfaction, we'll need definitions of

1) "pre-industrial" - do you mean any and all socio-economic systems back to the hunter-gatherers?
2) "over-production"
3) "waste"
4) "needs"
and
5) "useless"

 

[nino_savatte]

I'd say "yes" (thinking in terms of the Roman Empire, the medieval Church and possibly the Crusades for example). As, I guess from the tone of your comment, you'd be arguing "No" it seems to me that to answer your question to your satisfaction, we'll need definitions of

1) "pre-industrial" - do you mean any and all socio-economic systems back to the hunter-gatherers?
2) "over-production"
3) "waste"
4) "needs"
and
5) "useless"

1. Easy, it's the period before the industrial revolution. I don't know how you could interpret that to mean "the stone age"
2. Over-production: to produce more than is required (and to have the incentive to do so). If the commodity in question cannot be stored long-term, then it becomes waste. Wine lakes and butter mountains are examples of this. they cannot be sold to make a profit, so the commodity is either wasted or stockpiled until it rots.
3. See above
4. What is a "need" beyond clothing, heat, food and shelter? Is the desire for a new iPod a real need?
5. See above.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

1. Easy, it's the period before the industrial revolution. I don't know how you could interpret that to mean "the stone age"

Huh? (I am genuinely confused by your second sentence here?)

I'd still say there was over-production in the Roman Empire.

 

[david dissadent]

UG99 detected in Iran, likely to spread into Asia.

Wheat killer detected in Iran
Dangerous fungus on the move from East Africa to the Middle East
5 March 2008, Rome - A new and virulent wheat fungus, previously found in East Africa and Yemen, has moved to major wheat growing areas in Iran, FAO reported today. The fungus is capable of wreaking havoc to wheat production by destroying entire fields.

Countries east of Iran, like Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, all major wheat producers, are most threatened by the fungus and should be on high alert, FAO said.

It is estimated that as much as 80 percent of all wheat varieties planted in Asia and Africa are susceptible to the wheat stem rust (Puccinia graminis). The spores of wheat rust are mostly carried by wind over long distances and across continents.

http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2008/1000805/index.html

This problem has been around for about ten years now, but it seems to be on the move now. (UG99 Comes from Uganda 1999 where and when it was found.)

It is not a major cause of crop failure yet in any of the major wheat producers but if could yet be.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

I'd still say there was over-production in the Roman Empire.

To back this hunch up, I'd point you in the direction of Chap 16 (Different Economies, Discrepant Identities) of An Imperial Possession: Britain in the Roman Empire, 54 BC - AD 409 for an overview.