working class tories - lowest of the low?
- Thread starter trevhagl
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caroline1973
Well-Known Member
i'm no great fan of working class tories but i prefer them to upper class tories.
why direct your antipathy to people who are just sheltering behind an much-promoted illusion of meritocracy? i comfort myself with the same tropes, to be honest (why else would i have bothered to get a degree?).
why not direct your critical attention to the super rich, not especially bright clods, who know EXACTLY how their tiny group of families still largely runs and owns (75% of) the country, and who use their incredibly priviliged positions to boost their portion and salt their vast family fortunes away in overseas secret tax havens, sheltered from the gathering economic storms. (read 'who owns britain', and look behind the names of many of the top city boys to find the scions of the landed aristocracy).
why direct your antipathy to people who are just sheltering behind an much-promoted illusion of meritocracy? i comfort myself with the same tropes, to be honest (why else would i have bothered to get a degree?).
why not direct your critical attention to the super rich, not especially bright clods, who know EXACTLY how their tiny group of families still largely runs and owns (75% of) the country, and who use their incredibly priviliged positions to boost their portion and salt their vast family fortunes away in overseas secret tax havens, sheltered from the gathering economic storms. (read 'who owns britain', and look behind the names of many of the top city boys to find the scions of the landed aristocracy).
If a working class person has a Socialist canddiate to vote for I may agree with you, but with the left in England retreating from electoral politics bya ll accountsm, what do you expect
Latest example in a council by election in Westminster Church Street ward- where Respect polled a highly creditable 565 votes in 2006, with labour coming top with 1099 votes. So where the hell is the left candidate of any description?
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/sw_election02.php?w=18&e=1
Latest example in a council by election in Westminster Church Street ward- where Respect polled a highly creditable 565 votes in 2006, with labour coming top with 1099 votes. So where the hell is the left candidate of any description?
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/sw_election02.php?w=18&e=1
The Black Hand
Unclean
yes.
You have the upper class sussed, however, i dont hate THEM for doing whats in their own best interests, but i hate WORKING CLASS TORIES for being a disgrace to their class - the scabs, jobsworths and crawlers , the mates of the boss, the people who'd grass their fellow workmates up.
The Tories could never ever get in power without working class votes, and it's this lot that should have the greatest shame...
How THICK do you have to be to to vote for a bunch of wannabe Toffs ( newlabour esp the nxt generation millibands, balls, prunells ) who hate the working class?
How THICK do you have to be to to vote for a bunch of Toffs ( Greens ) who hate the working class?
How THICK do you have to be to to vote for a bunch of Toffs (SWP) who hate the working class? ( specificallyl white working class)
How THICK do you have to be to to vote for a bunch of Toffs (Respect) who hate the working class?
they are all social elitist bastards and it is like spliting shit so this whoe idea that working class people who vote tory are some how to blame for impending political disater is nonsense
exactly
i would say the lowest of the low are those hypocritical left/liberal wadicals who have jumped on the 'kick the working/under class bandwagon' which has taken of in recent weeks
especially the one who throw race around when its suits them for no other reason than debating with duruti
caroline1973
Well-Known Member
i just think its a tactical mistake to focus hostility on those working class people who act selfishly, and ignore the upper class people who do the same.
Frustration at a lack of class conciousness is understandable. But demonising sections of the working class, isn't going to create that class conciousness in my view. Instead for many, it just feeds the backlash against the left / having any sense of social solidarity. This isn't surprising really. It's clearly unfair that working class people get slagged off if they are not upstanding citizens (ie noble, altruistic, show social solidarity, pay taxes, abide by laws, etc etc), whilst the rich / upper class are allowed to get away with doing all these things, largely uncriticised. (I guess their ability to afford libel lawyers and extremely clever accountants might have something to do with it).
It's an easy trap to fall into because it's easier to attack 'our own' cos we know them much better and feel the disappointment first hand (same reason why the left spends so much time attacking the left). Also, its an easy trap, because sneering at the working class, or sections of it, is pushed at us constantly by an snobby, upper-middle class run, upper class owned media. But to be honest i think attacking groups of working class people like this, just creates understandable defensiveness and is counter-productive. I think the left made this mistake in the 80s, too, and i would hate to see it made again.
Frustration at a lack of class conciousness is understandable. But demonising sections of the working class, isn't going to create that class conciousness in my view. Instead for many, it just feeds the backlash against the left / having any sense of social solidarity. This isn't surprising really. It's clearly unfair that working class people get slagged off if they are not upstanding citizens (ie noble, altruistic, show social solidarity, pay taxes, abide by laws, etc etc), whilst the rich / upper class are allowed to get away with doing all these things, largely uncriticised. (I guess their ability to afford libel lawyers and extremely clever accountants might have something to do with it).
It's an easy trap to fall into because it's easier to attack 'our own' cos we know them much better and feel the disappointment first hand (same reason why the left spends so much time attacking the left). Also, its an easy trap, because sneering at the working class, or sections of it, is pushed at us constantly by an snobby, upper-middle class run, upper class owned media. But to be honest i think attacking groups of working class people like this, just creates understandable defensiveness and is counter-productive. I think the left made this mistake in the 80s, too, and i would hate to see it made again.
caroline1973
Well-Known Member
wrote this before seeing brasicacritique's response, this reply was to the OP!
caroline1973
Well-Known Member
i just think its a tactical mistake to focus hostility on those working class people who act selfishly, and ignore the upper class people who do the same.
Frustration at a lack of class conciousness is understandable. But demonising sections of the working class, isn't going to create that class conciousness in my view. Instead for many, it just feeds the backlash against the left / having any sense of social solidarity. This isn't surprising really. It's clearly unfair that working class people get slagged off if they are not upstanding citizens (ie noble, altruistic, show social solidarity, pay taxes, abide by laws, etc etc), whilst the rich / upper class are allowed to get away with doing all these things, largely uncriticised. (I guess their ability to afford libel lawyers and extremely clever accountants might have something to do with it).
It's an easy trap to fall into because it's easier to attack 'our own' cos we know them much better and feel the disappointment first hand (same reason why the left spends so much time attacking the left). Also, its an easy trap, because sneering at the working class, or sections of it, is pushed at us constantly by an snobby, upper-middle class run, upper class owned media. But to be honest i think attacking groups of working class people like this, just creates understandable defensiveness and is counter-productive. I think the left made this mistake in the 80s, too, and i would hate to see it made again.
Frustration at a lack of class conciousness is understandable. But demonising sections of the working class, isn't going to create that class conciousness in my view. Instead for many, it just feeds the backlash against the left / having any sense of social solidarity. This isn't surprising really. It's clearly unfair that working class people get slagged off if they are not upstanding citizens (ie noble, altruistic, show social solidarity, pay taxes, abide by laws, etc etc), whilst the rich / upper class are allowed to get away with doing all these things, largely uncriticised. (I guess their ability to afford libel lawyers and extremely clever accountants might have something to do with it).
It's an easy trap to fall into because it's easier to attack 'our own' cos we know them much better and feel the disappointment first hand (same reason why the left spends so much time attacking the left). Also, its an easy trap, because sneering at the working class, or sections of it, is pushed at us constantly by an snobby, upper-middle class run, upper class owned media. But to be honest i think attacking groups of working class people like this, just creates understandable defensiveness and is counter-productive. I think the left made this mistake in the 80s, too, and i would hate to see it made again.
I don't really hate the smaller parties (however clueless) that are trying to do something decent, but like you say, being posh they have no idea what it's like to drink in scum pubs and end up coming out with silly things like arselicking Islamic mentalism, giving ammo to the likes of the Sun.
trouble is no one working class can form a party, it costs too much money. The closest we had was Labour when it WAS Labour.
It's actually a case of the media CREATING working class Tories in order to divide the working class...remember the UDM ? The tabloids loved em...
josef1878
Well-Known Member
That bunch of scab bastards opened the door for Thatcher to do her worst, and she did.
If the NUM had won their fight we may have held back the tide of anti-union laws that followed.
NEVER MIND THE BALLOTS BOYS GO GO GO!
Hear hear
Not defending the UDM here BUT....The actions of arthur scargill helped to create the UDM every bit as much as the Tory press.
Socialism has to be democratic to be real workable alternative to the stupidity and excesses of capitalism.
Have to agree i think it is a bit counterproductive.....The Left need to start understanding aspiration not looking down at it....
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
This is a typical strawman IME. That somehow people on the left resent aspiration and betterment, or that socialism or anarchism seeks to drag everyone down to the level of society's lowest.
It simply doesn't work like that, the difference is that we aspire to improve everyone at the expense of those who exploit and harm society, rather than improve ourselves by siding with the exploiters against our peers.
really wheres the proof? i think that this is not strawman but truth - at a micro political level in groups like the anachists and swp and the unrepresentative nature of there organisations and on a macro politcal level by the likes of toynbee and nulabour as in this globalised world there are not enough spaces up th social ladder - why do you think they want to keep kids in school til they are 18? because there is no social mobility and as thinks are going there will be no jobs
The Black Hand
Unclean
Bullshit. "no social mobility" - that's a bollox absolutism that Stalin wouold be proud of...
i was raising a point with bluestreak but if you now claim to speak for him then you should at least let him know.. Yet more swering
attica can you keep on topic and tone down the swearing please. thanks
attica can you keep on topic and tone down the swearing please. thankscaroline1973
Well-Known Member
if that's the case then perhaps you should focus your bile on the upper classes who own the media and the upper middle classes who write for them (yes even the tabs). if you focus it on our peers, aren't you just falling into the trap the media has laid, every bit as much as those working class tories are?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Depends on what you mean by "aspiration", surely?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Statistically social mobility is almost static. Of course it's not absolute, but then few things ever are.
josef1878
Well-Known Member
If the UDM were the slightest bit interested in democracy they would have stayed in the NUM and FOUGHT THEIR CORNER.They were in a scab minority and threw their toys out of the pram.The ballot issue was a smokescreen whipped up by the media.
The mass meeting vote had always been acceptable in the past, why should Scargill and the NUM adhere to Tory employment laws and call a postal ballot?
caroline1973
Well-Known Member
just veering completely off topic here but having spent a weekend there a month or two ago it occured to me that perhaps the reason why nottingham is the boozed up fight capital of the country is second generation scab guilt and self-hatred?
seriously....
seriously....
Because thats what the law required ?
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
You can still get notionally extreme left union reps who are so far up managers' arse (the management are often members of the same union as the rep) that they migth as well be tories.
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