Working class not clever enough for political power

[Donna Ferentes]

Issues like Crime and Immigration show the Liberal lefts politics for what it is...Confused and Hopeless...

It could be that they're insufficiently unprincipled to say that certain things are so just because millions of people, wrongly, believe them.

I'd personally have thought that civilisation depended on the willingness of people to stick to the truth in the face of irrationality and prejudice.

 

[tbaldwin]

who are the liberal left? you mean neo labour? middle class lefties who haven't experienced working class life? i'm not being funny, it's just that your opinion is not uncommon and i'm entirely sure who the liberal left actually are.

I think of NL as part of the Liberal Left..The fact is though most on the Liberal Left hate them for being succesful...
But on issues like Education,Crime,Immigration there really is not as much difference between them as some people like to pretend.

 

[bluestreak]

but isn't one of the things you'd need to be to be part of the Liberal Left is left-wing?

I can't speak for the mythical Liberal Left, but IME what most people hate nu labour for is not being a socialist or even left-wing party anymore.

 

[tbaldwin]

but isn't one of the things you'd need to be to be part of the Liberal Left is left-wing?

I can't speak for the mythical Liberal Left, but IME what most people hate nu labour for is not being a socialist or even left-wing party anymore.

More like they hate Blairs face... Cos most of his critics like him want to see the education and legal system slightly reformed eg kept basically the same...
They look down on what they see as populism ...Just listen to what that twat Charles Clarke has been saying recently...
Most of his critics like Benn etc are every bit as opposed as he is to ordinary people having control..
They all believe in a kind of Benevolent dictatorship, that they disagree slightly on what that dictatorship should be like is no suprise.

People like Livingstone and Benn,could never really be united as there egos got in the way...There opposition to Blair and NL is more to do with ego than any real difference in fundamental views.

 

[nightowl]

but you can't hold children responsible for their uninformed choices - where did they get the impression that education wasn't going to help them? from their parents and families and social connections. and it might well be that they pass this attitude down to their kids. which suits the ruling classes just fine. educated poor background people tend not to follow party line IME.

i accept that there are many things that influence their outlook, but i believe kids are informed enough to make important decisions about their education by the time they've been at secondary school for a couple of years. we were certainly well informed about the need for a good education, and the consequences of not making the most of those opportunities.

 

[audiotech]

I think of NL as part of the Liberal Left..The fact is though most on the Liberal Left hate them for being succesful...
But on issues like Education,Crime,Immigration there really is not as much difference between them as some people like to pretend.

Where have you been the last nine years?

Blair (the liberal?) turns out to have an authoritarian streak that respects neither rights nor, the independence of the elected representatives in Parliament. He reportedly takes time out of his schedule so that he can compose the rabid responses calling for action against terrorism, crime, antisocial behaviour and immigration.

Here is how "liberal" Blair's Rule of Law is being disguised and implemented.

..the law banning people from demonstrating within one kilometre of Parliament is contained in the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act of 2005The right to protest freely has been affected by the Terrorism Act of 2000, which allows police to stop and search people in a designated area - which can be anywhere - and by antisocial behaviour laws, which allow police to issue an order banning someone from a particular activity, waving a banner, for instance. If a person breaks that order, he or she risks a prison sentence of up to five years. Likewise, the Protection from Harassment Act of 1997 - designed to combat stalkers and campaigns of intimidation - is being used to control protest. A woman who sent two e-mails to a pharmaceutical company politely asking a member of the staff not to work with a company that did testing on animals was prosecuted for "repeated conduct" in sending an e-mail twice, which the Act defines as harassment.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1129827.ece

As the Tory MP David Davies (no liberal) points out:

"If I had gone on the radio 15 years ago and said that a Labour government would limit your right to trial by jury, would limit - in some cases eradicate - habeas corpus, constrain your right of freedom of speech, they would have locked me up."

You might want to define again what you mean by "liberal left"?

 

[tbaldwin]

You might want to define again what you mean by "liberal left"?

LiberalLeft from tbaldwins dictionary of omnipotence..
Somebody who believes they know whats best for the disadvantaeged in society and believe that social justice is best served by a combination of altruism and benevolence....


God im good at this aernt I????

 

[brasicritique]

Have I read this thread yes have each my points been refuted by solid political social and economic arguments? Nope just name calling what a surprise oh how I marvel at such intellects. I said long run and I know a lot more working class people than you by the looks of things Dennisr = more like dense, dense by name dense by nature your a silly old sod If you think I am saying working class people are not clever and I also think you should know that there is a difference between stupidity and desperation for the benefit your own political development and weak arguments.

as for the list of easy straw men - 'middle-class' and 'leftie' stereotypes - created by you should be easy to knock down but you can't even manage that. =I refer you to your fellow urbanites who are to numerous to mention such as bluestreak of piss and his juvenile ‘anyone who says anything I don’t like is right wing’ eg;

A prime example of the ol I don’t like my working class background and want to be a middle class intellectual mentality;

i get sneered at and mocked for doing literature and philosophy because it doesn't make me any money and my regular bouts of unemployment have often proved them right! heh, as far as my uncle john is concerned i'm a bloody idiot for not getting myself a trade. on the whole i'm seen as being too smart for my own good, or somehow having ideas above my station! it makes me laugh actually, being accused of leaving my roots behind, before an argument where i advocate unionism and solidarity against their post-thatcherite free-for-allism.

BOO BLOODY HOO

you can't work out who your enemies really are yawn zzzz there a difference between enemies and cunts except in the case of yourself and the dense one, it is you who appear not to know who your enemies really are my enemies are not my family

so what do you do yourself- if that’s your best chat up line then no wonder your a sad and single sexless socialist

it was actually a proper debate- if you believe that you’ll believe anything

 

[audiotech]

LiberalLeft from tbaldwins dictionary of omnipotence..
Somebody who believes they know whats best for the disadvantaeged in society and believe that social justice is best served by a combination of altruism and benevolence....


God im good at this aernt I????

What happened to the "majority" in the "community"?

I alway's had you down as a Stalinist with national bolshevik tendencies.

 

[In Bloom]

LiberalLeft from tbaldwins dictionary of omnipotence..
Somebody who believes they know whats best for the disadvantaeged in society and believe that social justice is best served by a combination of altruism and benevolence....

Stop that, the only thing I can find to argue with is your incorrect use of the word "omnipotence" and it disturbs me

 

[William of Walworth]

Erm, yeah, because people vote for the BNP because they're racist

I don't know nopasaran's posting history on P and P but I read that post (which you responded to with this) as him saying that the BNP *COUNCILLORS* were racist, not (so much, in his post anyway) that all the voters were.

ETA : Oh, OK, saw your response afterwards in which you acknowledge that and still dispute it. Fair nuff.

 

[William of Walworth]

show me more than a tiny minority of people who voted bnp who did so because of their campaigning on non-race local issues, and i'll be impressed.

Same here ... any other flim-flam was simply a pathetic 'legitimisation' of the real reasons - fear of 'others' they see themselves as in competition with for limited resources. Fear of an 'otherness' that has been created for them by decades of mainstream propaganda disguised as 'news' and 'history' and 'education'. Some people fall for this rubbish for a time - when nothing better or more practical seems to be on offer.

The BNP are happy to assist those in power - getting us to fight over the crumbs falling from the big man's table - they have no interest in actually assisting working people in actually helping us wrestle for more than crumbs. Puppets.

Think Bloom is confusing an arguement over weather these voters are actually concious fascists/irreconcilable active racists OR ordinary people with some confused and ultimatly racist ideas (like every single one of us can behave to an extent) that can be won over to a real active opposition to the system that the BNP are presently pretending they are?

I'm with these posters about the BNP, anyway ...

 

[bluestreak]

More like they hate Blairs face... Cos most of his critics like him want to see the education and legal system slightly reformed eg kept basically the same...
They look down on what they see as populism ...Just listen to what that twat Charles Clarke has been saying recently...
Most of his critics like Benn etc are every bit as opposed as he is to ordinary people having control..
They all believe in a kind of Benevolent dictatorship, that they disagree slightly on what that dictatorship should be like is no suprise.

People like Livingstone and Benn,could never really be united as there egos got in the way...There opposition to Blair and NL is more to do with ego than any real difference in fundamental views.

i completely disagree to be honest, what you appear to be saying is that the Liberal Left, whoever they are, don't like Blair because he's popular? or because he's become populist?

 

[bluestreak]

LiberalLeft from tbaldwins dictionary of omnipotence..
Somebody who believes they know whats best for the disadvantaeged in society and believe that social justice is best served by a combination of altruism and benevolence....


God im good at this aernt I????

pretty much everyone with an opinion on politics thinks they know what's best for the disadvantaged in society. and nu labour, these liberal left-wingers you're on about, follow a thatcherite line on social justice which is anything but altruistic.

sorry mate, but your arguments aren't making any sense. you're reading like a daily mail blatherathon.

can you give some examples of the liberal left and how they are different to the centre-right, or normal left-wingers.

 

[William of Walworth]

I think the thing is about working calss people as anyone who's visited a working class pub knows- they tend to not be able to see themselves as others see them. They don't have middle class self consciousness.This is a big handicap in a profession based on image like politics.

As to the constant derision of BNP councillors- "BNP man says most of the meetings go over his head" etc- it's just downright snobbery. As is the constant attempts to report dodgy dealings of BNP members. The way the cobweb left reports on this just shows the contempt for the white working class. At least a third of all working class people have been in trouble with the law to greater or lesser degrees.

Maybe so, but for racist attacks? A fair number of BNP councillors have a dodgy/C18 etc.-related past.

And some of those councillors ARE fucking stupid. They might be cunning at gaining populist suport, some of them, but the two things (stupidity/cunning) don't contradict each other. To say this isn't class prejudice -- not necessarily anyway.

 

[William of Walworth]

the OP - his intention is to get the BNP on the agenda under the illusion that it is some sort of representative of working class interests. The rest of his 'arguements' are a cover for this drip, drip, drip of propaganda

Thats what I'm starting to think as I read this thread ....

 

[bluestreak]

you don't half talk some welly. would you like to formulate a couple of points and present them in a way that is possible to read and perhaps respond to.

 

[tbaldwin]

What happened to the "majority" in the "community"?

I alway's had you down as a Stalinist with national bolshevik tendencies.

MC5 The majority are not respected by the LiberalLeft so thats why my dictionary reference didnt include it..

Erm definetely not a Stalinist or anyone who believes in Democratic centralism or any wank like that...
And definetely not a nationalist at all....Cant stand the England Football team, want to scrap the monarchy..hate the bigoted twats who insist that immigration is in in our national interest to pay for our pensions etc...Want to see reparations to developing nations...

 

[tbaldwin]

pretty much everyone with an opinion on politics thinks they know what's best for the disadvantaged in society. and nu labour, these liberal left-wingers you're on about, follow a thatcherite line on social justice which is anything but altruistic.

sorry mate, but your arguments aren't making any sense. you're reading like a daily mail blatherathon.

can you give some examples of the liberal left and how they are different to the centre-right, or normal left-wingers.

The liberal left have a top down approach to social justice...It doesnt work...Well it kinda does for them in cushy jobs in regeneration etc....
Dont believe in altruism always thought that mother theresa deserves a good kicking, prune faced old tart....

 

[brasicritique]

go on Alf !

 

[tbaldwin]

Stop that, the only thing I can find to argue with is your incorrect use of the word "omnipotence" and it disturbs me

Be disturbed be very disturbed....

 

[bluestreak]

The liberal left have a top down approach to social justice...It doesnt work...Well it kinda does for them in cushy jobs in regeneration etc....
Dont believe in altruism always thought that mother theresa deserves a good kicking, prune faced old tart....

you mean that social justice is imposed by state as opposed to what?

i'm honestly trying to learn here so i'd really appreciate it if you answer the questions.

 

[William of Walworth]

Interesting thread.

I've read it all now, and I like bluestreak's and dennisr's posts best, good and insightful.

I've always been torn about this subject. My family, I mean my grandparents' generation, were all solid working class Trade Unionists/Old Labour socialists who believed in bringing my parents up (with considerable sacrifice) to go to college/university and be educated.

My parents ended up what is seen by some as 'cultured' and 'middle class' as a result, and probably would be disparageingly sneered at (by fucking twats) as 'liberal-left Guardian readers' by now.

The point is though that in our family, the value of reading and education was considered really important, going right back to all my grandparent's long hours of self selected reading and self education. They ended up, at the same time as being active TUist/socialist campaigners, with them not (privately) having a lot of patience sometimes for those of their fellow workers who were still ignorant/prejudiced.

I do think that many politically active people still share this outlook, it's a while since I was a TU rep and politically active myself, but what stopped me being much good at it was the struggle I had with suppressing impatience with some peoples' willingness to blame over easy scapegoats.

But I also share bluestreak's faith/optimism that people are very much capable of finding stuff out for themselves (this is true of all classes in fact) and can educate themselves whether formally (given the opportunity -- which many lack) or informally/self educatingly (given the time and inclination - which many lack).

One area where I do differ from parts of the left, is that for me there isn't much excuse for swallowing BNP propoganda/lies, and that it's insulting to those many people who ARE smart enough to resist it, to say, oh, BNP voters are largely working class**, they're being shat upon by capitalism (true), but, because they're w/c, we'll criticise them less than we would a middle class Tory with similar if slightly more erm subtle views.

**Some on the left try even to deny or at least minimise this!

To say the above is totally different from claiming (which I'm not) that BNP voters or working class people are inherently stupid ignorant racists. Just saying that plenty of people are smart enough to resist the snare of the BNP. Keyboard Jockey (Barking and Dagenham dweller of sound left views) often condemns the ignorance of those who believe BNP fuelled (or media fuelled) 'anecdotes' (or lies). While such condemnation is not in any way a counter-BNP STRATEGY, it's futile to get in denial that the BNP do prey on ignorance, and do succeed to a localised degree in doing so.

How best to combat this is another matter altogether.

Probably got more to say on this. Apologies for ramble ...

 

[tbaldwin]

you mean that social justice is imposed by state as opposed to what?

i'm honestly trying to learn here so i'd really appreciate it if you answer the questions.

The Liberal Lefts solutions always stop well short of giving working class people power...Is what i mean...Most of them have no respect for the views and aspirations of ordinary people.....A hell of a lot of them (me included) work for top down public and voluntary sector organisations and a lot of them are really just a tiny tiny little bit wanky....

 

[brasicritique]

Crawler ! I don’t know about welly but you’re a right gurkin

. would you like to formulate a couple of points and present them in a way that is possible to read and perhaps respond to.

Oh I see we are now going down the old tried and trusted ‘grammatically incorrect’ route, which combined with that lovely picture of chairman Alf makes all the points that I will EVER need to about you as a person and the decline of the left for me you nincompoop.

 

[dennisr]

no wonder your a sad and single sexless socialist

im in a fine relationship. got three kids, thanks

you, your just a very, very sad bitter cunt - stick to the actual wanking - you are no good at the verbal version

 

[bluestreak]

The Liberal Lefts solutions always stop well short of giving working class people power...Is what i mean...Most of them have no respect for the views and aspirations of ordinary people.....A hell of a lot of them (me included) work for top down public and voluntary sector organisations and a lot of them are really just a tiny tiny little bit wanky....

ah, now i get what you mean. people like nu labour who pretend to be left wing whilst carrying on right wing policies that work contrary to the needs of the poor. yeah, basically the ruling classes that i was talking about earlier that stand to gain by keeping the masses quiet. i don't even consider them worth applying the term left to, tbh.

i don't know about all public and NFP organisations. ive worked for some that are fucking angels and some that are definitely "liberal left".

 

[bluestreak]

Crawler ! I don’t know about welly but you’re a right gurkin

. would you like to formulate a couple of points and present them in a way that is possible to read and perhaps respond to.

Oh I see we are now going down the old tried and trusted ‘grammatically incorrect’ route, which combined with that lovely picture of chairman Alf makes all the points that I will EVER need to about you as a person and the decline of the left for me you nincompoop.

so basically what you're saying is that if i can;t work out what your stream of consciousness ramblings and abuse mean, that's my problem.

i'll try and summarise your points for you, then i'm going for a nap.

1. you think that the posters on this thread only think the WC are clever if they're extreme left-wing activists.

- where did anyone say that? lots of people on this thread have explained their view on why the working classes might be perceived as stupid, and why this perception is wrong.

2. the bnp are in the ascendence and the ruling classes will later turn right wing when it suits them.

- there are still less bnp councillors than green councillors. the ruling classes have always being right wing.

3. people on this board aren't working class, they're members of the elite.

- it's a mixture around here, but if you think theres more than one or two upper middle class types around here you're a fool.

4. those that are hate themselves. aimed at me, it seems.

- so what you're saying is that a person from a working class background shouldn't have a formal education? or what?

5. leftism is dead. the poor don't care about iraq or other leftist shibboleths.

- some do, some don't. the organised left-wing though is definitely in trouble, i'll give you that.

6. you have read this thread.

- so why attack people for saying the working classes are stupid when the vast majority on here have already explained why this isn't the case.

7. you're unimpressed by the level of intelligence around here.

- so why not demonstrate some of your own. the name calling only began when you accused people around here of being ignorant, elitist, and insecure. and your spelling and grammar is appalling, which may not indicate stupidity, but certainly indicates wilfull disdain for other people. your apparant support for the bnp also suggests a certain density around the frontal lobes as well.

8. no actual point as such, just a few paragraphs of insults with no action debate to back it up.

- no need to refute or debate this point, your moronic words speak tomes about you and the type of working class people who are attracted to the right .

9. the debate around here wasn't actually any good, despite what some say.

- well, that's a value judgement i guess. if we'd all been sitting around bigging up the bnp you'd probably have thought it was the greatest conversation ever.

so in conclusion, you're an illiterate, ignorant gobshite, who revels in his own stupidity and is looking forward to the day when all the different coloured people are sent home and the working classes are free to live in a paradisical land unencumbered by foreigners, education, or socialists, where the elites do the ruling, the workers do the working, and everyone knows their place.

 

[dennisr]

so in conclusion, you're an illiterate, ignorant gobshite, who revels in his own stupidity and is looking forward to the day when all the different coloured people are sent home and the working classes are free to live in a paradisical land unencumbered by foreigners, education, or socialists, where the elites do the ruling, the workers do the working, and everyone knows their place.

the summary was excellent

 

[In Bloom]

Think Bloom is confusing an arguement over weather these voters are actually concious fascists/irreconcilable active racists OR ordinary people with some confused and ultimatly racist ideas (like every single one of us can behave to an extent) that can be won over to a real active opposition to the system that the BNP are presently pretending they are?

No, I'm not. I know and like a lot of people who have voted BNP or considered doing so, they're not racist, merely pissed off with the other parties.

Take a look at BNP election material some time, it's not race they're talking about.