Working class not clever enough for political power

[bluestreak]

ok, here's my quick answer which might well be subject to further changes later on....

it is my opinion that the working classes are systematically kept as ignorant as possible. not because they're working class per se, but as a political strategy on the part of the ruling classes. where once the ruling classes were the upper classes they are now the upper middle classes. the greatest threat to the ruling classes is people with a) education, a b) enough life experience to see how 'society' works.

but through ensuring that the vast majority of people in this country have just enough education to work but not think things through in complex ways by a poor education system that fails on critical thinking, through spin and media manipulation and the soundbite era, and through cultivating a certain level of social exclusion necessary to create an us and them mentality.

it is my belief that each human being can achieve intellectual enlightenment if they are given the right education. it is also my belief that change, whether is is revoltionary or peaceful social transition, will not come whilst vast swathes of the population are kept stupid and denied the chance to realise how corrupt and self-serving the ruling classes actually are.

i'm not really sure it's a class thing per se - anyone can achieve in this wonderful society of ours, provided they play the game properly. if anything, the ruling elite like the occasional working class person to rise through their ranks so that they give the impression of being a classless society.

 

[dennisr]

show me more than a tiny minority of people who voted bnp who did so because of their campaigning on non-race local issues and i'll be impressed.

Think Bloom is confusing an arguement over weather these voters are actually concious fascists/irreconcilable active racists OR ordinary people with some confused and ultimatly racist ideas (like every single one of us can behave to an extent) that can be won over to a real active opposition to the system that the BNP are presently pretending they are?

 

[nurcoron]

I think the thing is about working calss people as anyone who's visited a working class pub knows- they tend to not be able to see themselves as others see them. They don't have middle class self consciousness.This is a big handicap in a profession based on image like politics.

As to the constant derision of BNP councillors- "BNP man says most of the meetings go over his head" etc- it's just downright snobbery. As is the constant attempts to report dodgy dealings of BNP members. The way the cobweb left reports on this just shows the contempt for the white working class. At least a third of all working class people have been in trouble with the law to greater or lesser degrees.

 

[dennisr]

i'm not really sure it's a class thing per se - anyone can achieve in this wonderful society of ours, provided they play the game properly. if anything, the ruling elite like the occasional working class person to rise through their ranks so that they give the impression of being a classless society.

so do you think we live in a meritocracy? I disagree on this - if anything movement 'upwards' has become harder not easier (sure there are plenty of states to prove this but do not have them to hand). We live in a society that is divided by different class and different class interests IMO

Anyway - this was not the intended points of the OP - his intention is to get the BNP on the agenda under the illusion that it is some sort of representative of working class interests. The rest of his 'arguements' are a cover for this drip, drip, drip of propaganda

 

[bluestreak]

no, i really don't believe we live in a meritocracy. sorry, that's pretty unclear. working class people CAN move up, but only through a combination of luck and playing the right game - see Prescott and Major for examples.

I don't know if I'd agree if social mobility is easier or more difficult. I grew up in one of those areas that could be defined as upper working / lower middle, and those people i know still have tended towards remaining in those bands as adults. however that's not exactly a representative survey, so i'd be interested in seeing and stats on the subject that you (or anyone else) may know the location of.

as to the agenda of the OP, the best way to treat those things is to ignore their agenda and discuss the issues that come up at tangents!

 

[dennisr]

I think the thing is about working calss people as anyone who's visited a working class pub knows ... As to the constant derision of BNP councillors- "BNP man says most of the meetings go over his head" etc- it's just downright snobbery. As is the constant attempts to report dodgy dealings of BNP members. The way the cobweb left reports on this just shows the contempt for the white working class. At least a third of all working class people have been in trouble with the law to greater or lesser degrees.

Its hypocrisy that is being pointed out - the hypocrisy of politicians claiming some sort of - IMO, false - alternative which they do not in practice have to offer. Its the hypocrisy of politicians claiming to be a party of harsh 'law and order' - when they are not - they are petty crims and thugs, usually of the lowest type of trick IMO (and that ain't what most working class people are done for). Its the hypocrisy of politicians who claim to be 'fighting for (at least white...) working class interests' but could not fight thier way out of a paper bag and are happy to vote again working class interests - for cuts and for tax rises and then claim they could not work out how to vote. Its the hypocrisy about a bunch of liars.

And as anybody who has visited a working class pub knows - if they are full of crap they are going to be pulled apart for it, the idiots. So don;'t pull the 'hard -done by prole' line - its bollacks.

I tend to see myself differently from the way the politicians see me - and that definatly includes the muppets of the BNP.

 

[treelover]

maybe ask the OP eh, about his/her views, he sound more like someone of a IWCA (remember them) persuasion,

btw, the cod marxist 'false consciousness of the working class' arguument is imo tired and had its day, in this country 'much of' the working class is conservative, often ignorant, nationalist,etc, (with a small p) no excuses for that, is there?

edited for clarity

 

[bluestreak]

most of those things you cite treelover are simple responses to a complex world that represent easy answers. people like easy answers. i'm not talking about false consiounesses or anything like that, just a simple lack of encouragement towards critical thinking. there are no excuses as such, just an explanation.

 

[dennisr]

maybe ask the OP eh, about his/her views, he sound more like someone of a IWCA (remember them) pesuasion

I am sure the poster can speak for himself if he disagrees with my posts. If he is then maybe he should concider weather he's got better things to do rather than wasting time and false concern about the 'unfair and anti-working class propaganda' against the BNP.

So the poster does not like the lame liberal shite that is sometimes put across and the veiled snobbery this is part of that. Neither do I, maybe he should spend more time explains the real issues then and taking the tasks the IWCA claim are the important ones up a bit more often. Or does he think its all hopeless but will not actually admit that to himself as yet??

btw, the cod marxist 'false consciousness of the working class' arguument is imo tired and had its day, in this country the working class is conservative, often ignorant, nationalist,etc, (with a small p) no excuses for that, is there?

Weather you support 'cod marxist arguements' or not does not make a whole heap of difference as to weather a section of the working class is conservate. I would not disagree that it can be - it is also contradictory - it can also be its exact opposite. You may not like my theories - but at least i am willing to test them in practice. What about the other issues regarding the BNP and it voter base I raised got any critisisms on these?

 

[treelover]

I should have added people can change, if its cultural and specific to time and place, i did...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well done for being honest about your views. I think most people on urban75 agree with most of that but few if any will be honest enough to admit it...

Don't you ever get enough of making comments about what you believe (but are never able to show any evidence to support) that other people think?

Don't put words in peoples' mouths just because it agrees with your prejudices, Balders.

It makes you look like a cunt.

 

[bluestreak]

many do. you gotta believe people can change when new information presents itself.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think the thing is about working calss people as anyone who's visited a working class pub knows- they tend to not be able to see themselves as others see them. They don't have middle class self consciousness.This is a big handicap in a profession based on image like politics.

Anyone who thinks that the denizens of a "working class pub" (whatever one of those is supposed to be) are representative of the entirety of working class culture or values is, in my opinion, "handicapped" by the sort of prejudice that proceeds from a belief in the mumbo-jumbo commonly known as "social Darwinism".

 

[JHE]

maybe ask the OP eh, about his/her views, he sound more like someone of a IWCA (remember them) persuasion

You must be joking! Nurcoron's views have absolutely nothing in common with anything I've ever read from the IWCA. The IWCA want working-class power - or working-class rule, as they put it.

Nurcoron is just an old-fashioned anti-democrat. The people are too thick. They need their betters (clever, richer people) to rule. It's a view as old as the hills.

If you want a better presentation of that view, read Burke. Nurcoron's ill-written comments are a very poor substitute. Come to think of it, Nurcoron probably just lacks the talent. Ultra-conservative propaganda should only be produced by excellent writers like Burke. Nurcoron should be forbidden to write. He should have his keyboard taken away - and most of us should lose the right to vote. Fair enough, Nurcoron?

 

[dennisr]

Fair enough, Nurcoron?

sounds about right to me.

 

[JimPage]

what "working class activist base" has the BNP got you bollocks??
>>>> to deny that the bnp has a predominatly working class background
or that its support is not drawn predominatly from the working class, in nonsense. its simply a proven fact.

If people are pointing out the incompitence and corruptness of the BNP councillors is got feck all to do with the class background of these charlatens.
>>>> i think someone has been reading Searchlight too much. you are not actually meant to belive what they say

These councillors have voted for council tax rises, for cuts - they could not give a toss about the working class 'white' or other. The liars.
>>>> from the BNP propaganda I come by, they are in a number of areas
is addressing issues which socialists should be dealing with first such as opposing housing stock transers- and opposing cuts as well

 

[JimPage]

the experience of the overwhelmingly working class SSP is your answer, in a few words. Working class people can organise themselves and have a real influence in communities.

There is no requirement for any poitical organisation to rely on the middle class.

 

[dennisr]

I don't know if I'd agree if social mobility is easier or more difficult.

Theres a couple of useful links here:
Toynbee in the Guardian:
http://society.guardian.co.uk/comment/column/0,7882,1184389,00.html

This is the report she talks about, rom the Governments own Strategy Unit on "Life Chances and Social Mobility: An Overview of the Evidence" which covers the main factors affecting social mobility or lack of it:
http://www.sosig.ac.uk/roads/cgi-bin/tempbyhand.pl?query=1081348227-22512&database=sosigv3

despite the endless regurgitation of "ordinary folk made good" type tv - like the rubbish about branson the 'rebel millionaire' - the reality is somewhat different. Nurocon, or whatever his name is, seems to want to set that underlying practice in stone for the rest of us 'thickies' - to go back to the days when governments and those in power tried to legitimise such inequality rather than cover it up as they generally do now (this report is an exception that proves the rule methinks)

 

[nightowl]

it is my opinion that the working classes are systematically kept as ignorant as possible. not because they're working class per se, but as a political strategy on the part of the ruling classes. where once the ruling classes were the upper classes they are now the upper middle classes. the greatest threat to the ruling classes is people with a) education, a b) enough life experience to see how 'society' works.

but through ensuring that the vast majority of people in this country have just enough education to work but not think things through in complex ways by a poor education system that fails on critical thinking, through spin and media manipulation and the soundbite era, and through cultivating a certain level of social exclusion necessary to create an us and them mentality.

unfortunately there are also plenty of people who seem happy to remain ignorant and not make the most of the educational opportunities open to them. i'm sure most of us went to school with people who didn't give a shit about learning anything and were just happy to get out of it as soon as possible. i occasionally wonder what those people are doing now and if they are happy with their choices.

 

[dennisr]

to deny that the bnp has a predominatly working class background or that its support is not drawn predominatly from the working class, in nonsense. its simply a proven fact.

That is entirely different from saying they have some sort of solid working class activist base. The support is almost entirelly passive - voter fodder. They still cannot mobilise the numbers - the activist base is still much smaller than the overall votes would suggest. And even what activist base exists is far from consolidated - look at the standing down of thier own councillors. As far as i can tell - open to any new information

i think someone has been reading Searchlight too much. you are not actually meant to belive what they say*

I'll use whatever info i have to hand to throw at them though - are you convinced they have yet shown a layer of good local councillors?

from the BNP propaganda I come by, they are in a number of areas is addressing issues which socialists should be dealing with first such as opposing housing stock transers- and opposing cuts as well

I'll have to find a list of examples to post of when they have actually been in a position of backing up the propaganda then - its the opposite in practice from my knowledge. It remains all talk on thier part - i don't see them actively involved in defending working class rights. Show me some examples of this - beyond election leaflets They are sidelined where issues like the NHS come to the fore in Huddersfield for example

I have no illusions they may ewell be able to gather together a few local councillors who may well be a bit more compitant in the future -i am not convinced they have that at the moment though. Far from it, one of the things that had held them back looking at some of the initial 'breakthroughs' they have had

added: * anyway Jim, I thought you would be the one avidly reading this from cover to cover - your posts on various sites are almost exclusively about the hard-right?? - actually, haven't bothered with it for years ...

 

[brasicritique]

Hypocrisy left right and centre! The working class are not clever unless of course they are left wing SWP then thats makes them clever enough for political power. The BNP are in the ascent and for those who are clever enough to see it nearly every long term thingymegig points in this direction - the decline of white working class involvement with left wing political parties, basic demographics, divisive faith schools , crap schools, the lack of social mobility and interaction, low expectations reinforced by portrayals in an unbalanced and elitist media, the lack of positive role models, the effect of globalisation and immegration, the lack of affordable housing, the cost of living, and as history ( and these boards ) show when push comes to shove the middle and upper classes will go far right when it suits them.When you treat some one like an animal you should not be suprised when they become one. And as for working class political leaders in general - see Saddam, Stalin, Hitler and Mao they can be rightly accussed of many things but being not 'clever is not one of them

Too many people on these boards are living in a media metropolitain socially ignorant elite upper/middle class bubble with the odd insecure working class wannabe who hates their own background and people from it more than anyone else and is desperate for upper/middle class aproval by the looks of things. ( you know who you are )

The left wing apart ( The odd IWAC aside) are dead and populated by people who are ideologically the same as they were in the 1980s. how many people at the botom end of society give a fuck about iraq or trident? the working class may not be 'clever' enough for political power if we accept the arguement at face value but then niether are those who think they offer a valid political alternative or defend the status quo by the looks of things.

 

[bluestreak]

Theres a couple of useful links here:
Toynbee in the Guardian:....snip...)

cheers, i'll have a look at them later.

 

[dennisr]

every long term thingymegig points in this direction - the decline of white working class involvement with left wing political parties, basic demographics, divisive faith schools , crap schools, the lack of social mobility and interaction, low expectations reinforced by portrayals in an unbalanced and elitist media, the lack of positive role models, the effect of globalisation and immegration, the lack of affordable housing, the cost of living, and as history ( and these boards ) show when push comes to shove the middle and upper classes will go far right when it suits them.When you treat some one like an animal you should not be suprised when they become one.

the hyrocricy is entirely yours if you think working class people are like this or this stupid - what a load of crud

the list of easy straw men - 'middle-class' and 'leftie' stereotypes - created by you should be easy to knock down but you can't even manage that. And no, i don't think much of the SWP either - so what? IMO you can't work out who your enemies really are - you are confusing some sort of understanding with your own, obviously, bitter experiences.

<thinks>thats the problems with younguns nowadays its all "me me me"</thinks>

 

[dennisr]

The left wing apart ( The odd IWAC aside) are dead

You mean the IWCA? - so what do you do yourself - apart from hide behind verbal support of a safe 'alternative' option you find easy to defend? (not that i am attacking them...)

 

[bluestreak]

unfortunately there are also plenty of people who seem happy to remain ignorant and not make the most of the educational opportunities open to them. i'm sure most of us went to school with people who didn't give a shit about learning anything and were just happy to get out of it as soon as possible. i occasionally wonder what those people are doing now and if they are happy with their choices.

but you can't hold children responsible for their uninformed choices - where did they get the impression that education wasn't going to help them? from their parents and families and social connections. and it might well be that they pass this attitude down to their kids. which suits the ruling classes just fine. educated poor background people tend not to follow party line IME.

lots of people don't seem to respect education. i was lucky, my dad wanted me to go to university because he always regretted being forced out of school at 14 by his dad. but the rest of his family saw education as a waste, and pointless. alright for those that can afford to sit around all day but not for the bloke who has to support his family. even when one of my cousins got into university her dad would have gone spare if she'd done a non-vocational degree. i get sneered at and mocked for doing literature and philosophy because it doesn't make me any money and my regular bouts of unemployment have often proved them right! heh, as far as my uncle john is concerned i'm a bloody idiot for not getting myself a trade. on the whole i'm seen as being too smart for my own good, or somehow having ideas above my station! it makes me laugh actually, being accused of leaving my roots behind, before an argument where i advocate unionism and solidarity against their post-thatcherite free-for-allism.

 

[bluestreak]

froth foam blather wah wah wah

have you actually read this thread. it was actually a proper debate until you showed up. typical rightist nonsense in your post, all accusations and no substance. pretty much every point you made has already been refuted on this thread before you came along! fucking spoon.

 

[tbaldwin]

The truth is that the Liberal Left never have respected the views and aspirations of working class people. Issues like Crime and Immigration show the Liberal lefts politics for what it is...Confused and Hopeless...

 

[bluestreak]

who are the liberal left? you mean neo labour? middle class lefties who haven't experienced working class life? i'm not being funny, it's just that your opinion is not uncommon and i'm entirely sure who the liberal left actually are.

 

[tbaldwin]

Don't you ever get enough of making comments about what you believe (but are never able to show any evidence to support) that other people think?

Don't put words in peoples' mouths just because it agrees with your prejudices, Balders.

It makes you look like a cunt.

In the absence of honesty try an insult....Looking like a cunt to who? To you and a few other saddoes....Really how much do you think that worries me?

 

[yield]

DrRingDing - I don't think nurcoron's a troll - that poster joined at the same time as the thread where Patrick Harrington joined.

Strangely, rather than a troll, I thought that was a picture representing the sleeping giant of the silent majority with the means of production in his hand.

...

Briefly addressing the OP... class is no indication of intelligence.
Being born into a wealthy family means you often have access to a better education, healthier diet and higher aspirations.
While there is usually a relationship between wealth and class there isn't neccesarily one.