Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
Fisher_Gate said:
Are you serious? A "significant following"? In 1938?
Workers Power Expulsions
- Thread starter Fisher_Gate
- Start date
Are you serious? A "significant following"? In 1938?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I believe they will still be involved actually, tho not putting as much work at the mo (which probably would equate to fuck all in most places then). I dont see how most of the youth will throw themselves into such a 'left reformist' campaign as the CNWP thodennisr said:
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
Fisher_Gate said:
The prognosis of the TP was partially correct in so far as there was a wave of workers struggles from 1941 to 1947. But that wave was smaller and weaker than that of 1916 to 1923 and was everywhere betrayed by Stalinism and social democracy.
As an advocate of the revolutionary politics of Trotsky I obviously reject the revisionist idea that capitalism was overthrown in China at some point after 1948. If Mao's China was a workers state then so too must the 'Soviet' areas in north east China and Trotsky rejected that view as revisionism as he did the position you put forward that Stalinism was not wholly counter-revolutionary.
There is no such things a 'normal' capitalism. the idea that there is an abstraction from reality.
dennisr
the acceptable face
belboid said:
Funnily enough - one of the critisisms from the expellees (present tasks stemming from actual perspectives) seems to be the pointlessnes of being involved in what they see as an empty front organisation at the moment. As much as i disagree (I see the CNWP as a necessary marker which can fill out in the right circumstances) it is better than the "WP should expose the 'centrists/left reformists' and try to impose an openly revolutionary programme" of the load who remain as the leadership of the group. Not that those expelled are a hundred miles from this line - but they are more 'sensible' about how thay approach what they see as necessary (if that makes sence...).
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Neprimerimye, any idea which faction the WP comrades where we live are in?
Fisher Gates assesment of Stalinism not being totally counter-revolutionary in some ways seems closer to Isaac Deutscher's position than Trotsky's. One of the advantages of the State-Capitalism theory is that it focuses discussion away from the abstracts of "socialist property forms and relations" onto the concrete question of who is in the saddle in these societies, the concrete question of workers control and democracy.
Fisher Gates assesment of Stalinism not being totally counter-revolutionary in some ways seems closer to Isaac Deutscher's position than Trotsky's. One of the advantages of the State-Capitalism theory is that it focuses discussion away from the abstracts of "socialist property forms and relations" onto the concrete question of who is in the saddle in these societies, the concrete question of workers control and democracy.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
All sounds all too familiar: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/6305388458/104-3696669-7075165?v=glance&n=130
Will the 30 expelled comrades set up a rival league for the 5th International?
I'm still a bit vague as to what the exact differences are, and surprised that their has been no sign of conflict in WP prior to the expulsions to us outsiders.
Will the 30 expelled comrades set up a rival league for the 5th International?
I'm still a bit vague as to what the exact differences are, and surprised that their has been no sign of conflict in WP prior to the expulsions to us outsiders.
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
Udo Erasmus said:
No idea. I'm curious to know myself especially given that they are or were personally close to Jeremy D who would appear to be part of the majority leadership. Jeremy a theoretician my sides split with laughter!!! Jeez i like the guy but..... a clue he has not.
Fisher Gate is a pabloite. End of. Why do you think he tails your mob?
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
Udo Erasmus said:
Udo read the two statements that are now available. To be fair to all concerned the differences are pretty major.
Yes they already have a group set up called Permanent Revolution. And Cardiff are confirmed as out.
While i think that the prohibition of publically airing internal disputes as practicised by Workers Power is daft and very different to the practice of the Bolsheviks the comrades of the minority are to be commended for their discipline in this dispute.
And at least they were accorded factional rights which is more than would hapen within the SWP which bans all factional rights.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
neprimerimye said:
Someone from the SP told me an anecdote about Jeremy D. that during the poll tax he argued at a meeting for a general strike in our city. That got voted down as being impractical, it was decided to instead have a march through the city centre, it was then asked for a show of hands as to who could make it and Jeremy D (who moments earlier had called for a general strike) was silent. When asked why he couldn't make it, he said: "I can't get the day off work"!!
I don't know if this anecdote is true, but I had a similar experience during the visit of George Bush. I was sold a copy of Workers Power which had a statement, "Global General Strike against Bush" and the editorial "If workers have to down tools to stop Bush, if kids have to walk out of school, then so be it." I then asked the comrade who had sold me the newspaper if he would be attending the demo against Bush, he said: "No, I can't be bothered to take the day of work" - so much for downing tools! No member of WP in our city attended either the local or national demo's against Bush.
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
Udo Erasmus said:
Well I always liked Jeremy so I'm not going to engage in dissing him on this board. In any case I was working 48-72 hours weeks during the Poll tax campaign so I have no idea if what you say is true.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
neprimerimye said:
Well I'm sure you can disagree politically with someone while liking them on a personal level, and I've never met Jeremy D. so I probably shouldn't really being repeating annecdotes unless they have been substantiated, I would assume that the SP member who told me this got the story from the SP full-timer.
I was wondering why their paper seemed to be coming out less and less often. Having spent the last few months arguing with the Manchester WP organiser over everything because of a SWP member who is also a revo member this is an interesting turn of events. Does anyone know of what happened to the Manchester branch? Oganiser is obviously part of the Majority but the old hands could well be minority.
Squatticus
for an armed populace
levien said:
Right about everything there except that the person it seems you're referring to was removed by the branch as organiser a month or two ago for chronic non-attendance. Interesting that he's kept you under the impression he's still in post.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
the Weakly Wanker must be devastated at there failure!Udo Erasmus said:
On the quetion of the influence of China re-entering the world markets, I think the Majority are actually more in the right - tho they vastly over-compensate for the minorities opinion that that event will stabilise capital for ten years, that is, sadly, only to be expected during a faction fight. Thus they end up vastly over-stating the urgency of their 'tasks' ( as well as there ability to meet those tasks) - eg insisting on democratic centralism to operate across every body they belong to.
hmmmm....
sorry, i fucked up the last posting.
when reading the statement on the WP website about all this, one sentence stands out for me:
"The evidence for this appalling behaviour is undeniable: thanks to the fact that we have been sent all the faction’s electronic correspondence with one another."
that's curious - did one of the faction members blow the proverbial whistle? seems very unlikely as it would not be in their favour. how did they get hold of private email correspondence? sounds like they've got their own little gestapo going on to me.
sorry, i fucked up the last posting.
when reading the statement on the WP website about all this, one sentence stands out for me:
"The evidence for this appalling behaviour is undeniable: thanks to the fact that we have been sent all the faction’s electronic correspondence with one another."
that's curious - did one of the faction members blow the proverbial whistle? seems very unlikely as it would not be in their favour. how did they get hold of private email correspondence? sounds like they've got their own little gestapo going on to me.
Squatticus
for an armed populace
neprimerimye said:
Agree on all three points
Squatticus
for an armed populace
jemima said:
And that one.
socialistsuzy
New Member
on the list of people expelled is 'kate' Kate F?
urbanrevolt
New Member
Well, indeed. We have our suspicions in fact. But I guess we leave all that orgsanisational nonsense- who said what about whom- behind us now.
On the CNWP we do indeed have our criticisms (hi Cliffite gald to see you in cyberspace) but that doesn't mean we aren't interested in genuine initiatives where workers are taking action against Labour for example standing as worker militants on an program of struggle or that we'd take an ultimatist position.
For example, in Bolton Trades Council I suggested holding a meeting of trade unionists, other workers, youth etc on the issues around political representation for the working class inviting anyone interested including CNWP, Respect, socialists, comunists, anarchists, even LP activists.
I think in general we'll be standing by the program of WP from 75 up to early 90s but for me one of the things that is most exciting is that we're not claiming to have all the right answers- far from it. We're willing to enter into dialogue and most importantly common action with orther political activists and workers in struggle- whether in a strike, trade union dispute, anti-deportation campaign or a whole host of other issues.
On the CNWP we do indeed have our criticisms (hi Cliffite gald to see you in cyberspace) but that doesn't mean we aren't interested in genuine initiatives where workers are taking action against Labour for example standing as worker militants on an program of struggle or that we'd take an ultimatist position.
For example, in Bolton Trades Council I suggested holding a meeting of trade unionists, other workers, youth etc on the issues around political representation for the working class inviting anyone interested including CNWP, Respect, socialists, comunists, anarchists, even LP activists.
I think in general we'll be standing by the program of WP from 75 up to early 90s but for me one of the things that is most exciting is that we're not claiming to have all the right answers- far from it. We're willing to enter into dialogue and most importantly common action with orther political activists and workers in struggle- whether in a strike, trade union dispute, anti-deportation campaign or a whole host of other issues.
urbanrevolt
New Member
Kate is indeed Kate F of hackney NUT
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