Wind power

[lewislewis]

Offshore wind is where the real potential is at. Thousands of MW can be generated rather than just tens as with onshore wind farms. They also don't generate as much Nimbyism or local opposition as onshore wind.

I know that here in Wales onshore wind faces major and regular opposition including from some nationalists who believe it means exploiting Wales' resources and landscape to fuel England's energy needs. But with offshore wind the exploitation isn't as apparent and isn't a problem.

There are 2 major offshore wind farms being developed off the coast of north Wales, and there is planning consent for a colossal wind farm development under Welsh jurisdiction out towards the Atlantic Ocean near Lundy Island, which at present would be the largest in the world.

In Scotland the SNP believes that Scotland can power the whole of western Europe using offshore wind power and is projecting Scotland as the 'green engine' of Europe should they remain in power. They're already ahead of the game and the expansion of offshore wind energy in Scotland is happening faster than any other European nation, backed up with incentives and a favourable planning regime from the Scottish Government.

So the nationalists aren't all about oil after all!

 

[lewislewis]

yes i agree with this .. lots of problems with wind farms .. for the urban elite it is an easy way for them to keep driving their big cars and heating their oversized homes to put energy generation in poor places .. wales e fpr example has been ****ed by energy extraction for too long

solution .. massive investment in energy conservation, domestic and particularly induistrial .. The Holyhead Aluminium factory consumed 10% of the total welsh energy production .. nuclear power stations and all .. and yes a chnage in life style .. commuting is simply nuts

It might interest you as well that Wales is an energy net exporter, producing more than we use. Also if the Severn Barrage, Prenergy biomass plant (largest biomass plant in the world that will power half of Wales' homes), the massive LNG plants at Milford Haven and related natural gas pipeline, and the massive offshore wind farms all go ahead, Wales will be producing maybe three times as much energy as we use as a country!

There will be no other situation like this on the planet as far as I know except with anomalous micro-states. It will be as if Wales is a kind of energy-colony for England. We could probably afford independence if all those power sources eventually get the go ahead and if we were able to tax them. Conversely, I'd imagine London would then be reluctant to let us go

 

[jonajuna]

can i just add, wales isnt a country

 

[moon23]

There a vast number of complex reports and calculations on this subject. Arguably if climate change can be mitigated against by reducing CO2 then the long-term costs of conventional coal power versus wind would need to be factored into account and that calculations is only ever going to be an estimate.

In terms of immediate costs Wind is about 50% more expensive than coal once you factor in that you need back-up gas generators for days when it is not windy, and means to store the energy such as pumping water up hill etc. That then makes it more expensive than Nuclear which is the other low carbon option.

Wind Turbines require a lot of work and maintenance. All those windmills out at sea or an engineering nightmare in terms of repair.

 

[fractionMan]

infrared voltaic "cells"

10 years and itll be all over

cheaper that pv and works day and night

Only if they can work out how to get the electricity out of them!

 

[durruti02]

Offshore wind is where the real potential is at. Thousands of MW can be generated rather than just tens as with onshore wind farms. They also don't generate as much Nimbyism or local opposition as onshore wind.

I know that here in Wales onshore wind faces major and regular opposition including from some nationalists who believe it means exploiting Wales' resources and landscape to fuel England's energy needs. But with offshore wind the exploitation isn't as apparent and isn't a problem.

There are 2 major offshore wind farms being developed off the coast of north Wales, and there is planning consent for a colossal wind farm development under Welsh jurisdiction out towards the Atlantic Ocean near Lundy Island, which at present would be the largest in the world.

In Scotland the SNP believes that Scotland can power the whole of western Europe using offshore wind power and is projecting Scotland as the 'green engine' of Europe should they remain in power. They're already ahead of the game and the expansion of offshore wind energy in Scotland is happening faster than any other European nation, backed up with incentives and a favourable planning regime from the Scottish Government.

So the nationalists aren't all about oil after all!

yes i agree offshore makes far more sense for MEGA schemes .. ny issue is that looking fo BIG is part of the problem we have to get away from

 

[durruti02]

It might interest you as well that Wales is an energy net exporter, producing more than we use. Also if the Severn Barrage, Prenergy biomass plant (largest biomass plant in the world that will power half of Wales' homes), the massive LNG plants at Milford Haven and related natural gas pipeline, and the massive offshore wind farms all go ahead, Wales will be producing maybe three times as much energy as we use as a country!

There will be no other situation like this on the planet as far as I know except with anomalous micro-states. It will be as if Wales is a kind of energy-colony for England. We could probably afford independence if all those power sources eventually get the go ahead and if we were able to tax them. Conversely, I'd imagine London would then be reluctant to let us go

the port talbot plant is interesting .. i remember there was opposition re pollutiion i think .. and it seems bizarre to import the wood from the USA .. btw surely teh LNG are very politicaly dependent and if things change could stop overnight

 

[kained&able]

I know they're not free, I meant the raw materials used to produce electricity are free (wind as opposed to oil for example).

How is oil not free if wind is free?

Oil is produced naturally, its the harvesting and turning the raw materials into fuel that costs money, which is the same with wind.

You seem to be confusing renewable with free.


dave

 

[moon23]

How is oil not free if wind is free?

Oil is produced naturally, its the harvesting and turning the raw materials into fuel that costs money, which is the same with wind.

You seem to be confusing renewable with free.


dave

Uranium is a free natural source of energy too, and a nuclear reaction is a natural process after all that's how we get our energy from the sun.

 

[Crispy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8443865.stm

Prime Minister Gordon Brown is launching a £100bn programme to build thousands of offshore wind farms.

Bids for tenders for nine zones around territorial waters and the Continental Shelf were submitted to the Crown Estate, which owns the seabed to a distance of 22.2km off the UK coast.

It will create one of the biggest infrastructure projects for wind energy in the world, with construction beginning in 2014 at the earliest.

Now that's more like it! A project this large could create 10,000s of manufacturing jobs and push the UK into the forefront of the wind turbine industry.

 

[LLETSA]

Its all about solar.

The oil aint going to run out anytime soon and if it does, well we are sitting on hundreds of years worth of coal supplies but within 10 years, maybe 15 at most, then solar energy will have offered us the chance to tell nations such as Saudi Arabia to go and fuck themselves.

You haven't really looked into this, have you?

 

[fractionMan]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8443865.stm



Now that's more like it! A project this large could create 10,000s of manufacturing jobs and push the UK into the forefront of the wind turbine industry.

That's a shitton of turbines.

Good move imo.

 

[MikeMcc]

And the winners are...

























http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8448203.stm

 

[lewislewis]

Two absolutely huge wind farms off Wales. I welcome these. Although not the say of the Welsh Government, they make a huge contribution towards our policy to make Wales self-sufficient in renewable energy within a generation.

 

[nightbreed]

I notice a windfarm is planned for just off the Isle of Wight. Hang on, didnt the used to make turbine blades on the Isle Of wight?

Vestas, thats the place.

 

[Malawi]

Its all about solar.

The oil aint going to run out anytime soon and if it does, well we are sitting on hundreds of years worth of coal supplies but within 10 years, maybe 15 at most, then solar energy will have offered us the chance to tell nations such as Saudi Arabia to go and fuck themselves.

 

[LLETSA]

Unfortunately, solar power, like most alternative energy, depends on oil for its manufacture and maintenance. So cross that off the list for now and wait for the intervention of a miracle.

 

[Crispy]

Unfortunately, solar power, like most alternative energy, depends on oil for its manufacture and maintenance. So cross that off the list for now and wait for the intervention of a miracle.

what about solar thermal? made of completely mundane materials, so no need for rare metals, expensive factories etc. just mirrors, pipes and turbines. You can happily repurpose ones from old coal/gas power stations.

 

[durruti02]

£100 billion?? thats how much per person to produce how much that with conservation could have been saved anyway .. technological fix that keeps big businesson side but stops us actually looking ta whats going on in the world

 

[LLETSA]

what about solar thermal? made of completely mundane materials, so no need for rare metals, expensive factories etc. just mirrors, pipes and turbines. You can happily repurpose ones from old coal/gas power stations.

Perhaps. But any widespread construction would surely rely on vast amounts of oil, as would their maintenance?

 

[Combustible]

£100 billion?? thats how much per person to produce how much that with conservation could have been saved anyway .. technological fix that keeps big businesson side but stops us actually looking ta whats going on in the world

You don't think spending £100 billion to create jobs is a good thing?

 

[Crispy]

Perhaps. But any widespread construction would surely rely on vast amounts of oil, as would their maintenance?

Now, yes, but in the future, maybe less so. Electric construction vehicles are not new and there is already an established industry of industrial electric vehicles (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleytruck). Excavators etc use hydraulic pressure to power their tracks and booms, so a deisel plant can easily be swapped for an electric one without affecting the design of the rest of the machine.

Construction and industrial transport is less 'married' to oil than personal transport, IMO

 

[LLETSA]

Now, yes, but in the future, maybe less so. Electric construction vehicles are not new and there is already an established industry of industrial electric vehicles (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleytruck). Excavators etc use hydraulic pressure to power their tracks and booms, so a deisel plant can easily be swapped for an electric one without affecting the design of the rest of the machine.

Construction and industrial transport is less 'married' to oil than personal transport, IMO

Isn't electricity, as opposed to being an energy source, something which is generated from energy, and thus dependent on a shrinking resource base?

 

[Crispy]

yes, but if you build one solar power plant, you can use a fraction of the power output to build the next and so on. oil depletion makes oil expensive, but not nonexistent

 

[LLETSA]

yes, but if you build one solar power plant, you can use a fraction of the power output to build the next and so on. oil depletion makes oil expensive, but not nonexistent

I guess time will tell...

 

[Sasaferrato]

In the last week, during one of the highest periods of demand for energy that we have seen in a while, wind power supplied 2% of electricity used.

 

[williammartin]

I can't see windpower catching on:-

 

[Crispy]

In the last week, during one of the highest periods of demand for energy that we have seen in a while, wind power supplied 2% of electricity used.

The only way is up

 

[Falcon]

In January 2009 we had a high pressure weather system over the UK for weeks. It was very cold. And the wind didn't blow. During that entire period, the UK's entire (elevated) electricity demand had to be met from fossil fuel sources. They will in future.

Wind farms don't decrease your need to build coal, gas and nuclear plants. They decrease the need you have to make use of them. You still need to buy them and maintain them ON TOP of the cost of buying and maintaining the wind farms. Only the cost of fuel goes down, which isn't that significant a fraction of life-cycle cost.

The conclusion: energy bills are going to be sky high soon, and there is no technology miracle in the wings to prevent it.

This is a good resource if you are interested in the ability (or otherwise) of renewable energy to support our deranged way of living: Searching for a Miracle: Net Energy limits & The Fate Of Industrial society