Will Young on Question Time

[scott_forester]

Go Shami Chakrabarti by the way. All guns blazing and not being a tit that shouts others down or resorts to name calling, deeply impressed.

I love Shami, but she did look like she was heading for a vicer and tarts party afterwards. Her glam new look may take a while. She bent Hoon right over.

 

[marty21]

Does it matter? I don't find it offensive, but I avoid it out of politeness because others are offended. Plus it carries ugly racialist connotations.

Wasn't Ms Chakrabarti condemning torture: it's easy to be unequivocal about that!

you don't find it offensive even though you admit it carries ugly racialist connotations?

 

[zenie]

I'm a bit puzzled as to why he went back on there, does Will Young think he's headed for Politics?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

He does seem to love being on camera, did much better on Top Gear though. Did seem to be out of his depth in the discussion.

 

[beeboo]

shami was brilliant. Will was a bit embarassing but he's still a sweetie

 

[editor]

So is he a Thatcher-loving closet racist then?

 

[zenie]

So is he a Thatcher-loving closet racist then?

I think that's a bit harsh! To me it seemed like he was saying what is said in private shouldn't have an effect on that person's career or be brought to the general public's attention. Meaning it was dealt with wrongly by the BBC....or something.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I think that's a bit harsh! To me it seemed like he was saying what is said in private shouldn't have an effect on that person's career or be brought to the general public's attention. Meaning it was dealt with wrongly by the BBC....or something.

Well if something offensive was said then making that thing public, whereby it might offend or upset lots more people, seems a bit counterproductive. Methinks the BBC is eager to get something right for once and so went a little bit over the top with the whole 'look at us, we're punishing this wicked transgressor' shtick. If Thatcher really needed sacking then that could have been done in private without it being necessary to make such a huge fuss.

 

[zenie]

Well if something offensive was said then making that thing public, whereby it might offend or upset lots more people, seems a bit counterproductive. Methinks the BBC is eager to get something right for once and so went a little bit over the top with the whole 'look at us, we're punishing this wicked transgressor' shtick. If Thatcher really needed sacking then that could have been done in private without it being necessary to make such a huge fuss.

Or maybe the beeb just did publicise it to save face and get one over on Thatcher?

 

[marty21]

I think that's a bit harsh! To me it seemed like he was saying what is said in private shouldn't have an effect on that person's career or be brought to the general public's attention. Meaning it was dealt with wrongly by the BBC....or something.

to be fair to him, i think he was way out of his depth, and panicked a bit at the question

 

[butchersapron]

He was claiming to be a marxist afew years back wasn't he? Maybe he's just demosntrated the truth of the idea that material conditions determine consciousness?

 

[Azrael]

you don't find it offensive even though you admit it carries ugly racialist connotations?

No, because I don't believe they were intended by Florence Kate Upton, or Robinson's jam. It's been appropriated as code by creepy racialist types, who have imposed their own ugly meaning on it: and it does look like a blackface charicature, so is best avoided.

Provided all that is acknowledged, and the Gollywog is avoided outside collectors of children's books, dolls and jamjars, I don't see why a particular emotional response is necessary (or possible, for that matter).

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Why on earth is Will Young on Question time?

Ridiculous!

I'm a bit puzzled as to why he went back on there, does Will Young think he's headed for Politics?

apparently he did the show cos he said at one of his performances last year that he would like to so they called his bluff and got him on.

seeing his name was enough to make me decide to not bother with last nights show tbh. what next, clarkson presenting newsnight or andy peters doing the politics show

 

[5t3IIa]

There's this:

Young read Politics at the University of Exeter and graduated with a 2:2 honours degree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Young

 

[maximilian ping]

Why on earth is Will Young on Question time?

Ridiculous!

not really, QT is just entertainment

 

[marty21]

No, because I don't believe they were intended by Florence Kate Upton, or Robinson's jam. It's been appropriated as code by creepy racialist types, who have imposed their own ugly meaning on it: and it does look like a blackface charicature, so is best avoided.

Provided all that is acknowledged, and the Gollywog is avoided outside collectors of children's books, dolls and jamjars, I don't see why a particular emotional response is necessary (or possible, for that matter).

how do you think florence upton got the idea, possibly from the black minstrels, a racist representation of a black man

 

[London_Calling]

He'll end up singing 'Congratulations' in the rain at Wimbledon.

 

[Azrael]

how do you think florence upton got the idea, possibly from the black minstrels, a racist representation of a black man

Possibly so. People were far less sensitive to the connotations of such images back then.

I can't make myself be offended; it's an emotional response. I'm deeply offended by deliberately racialist images. It's the expectation myself and Mr Young be offended that I find both creepy and irrelevant. So long as we're aware of the connotations, and avoid said caricature out of politeness, your emotions shouldn't matter, unless we're into thought crime.

 

[marty21]

Possibly so. People were far less sensitive to the connotations of such images back then.

I can't make myself be offended; it's an emotional response. I'm deeply offended by deliberately racialist images. It's the expectation myself and Mr Young be offended that I find both creepy and irrelevant. So long as we're aware of the connotations, and avoid said caricature out of politeness, your emotions shouldn't matter, unless we're into thought crime.

in other words, you are not offended by racism

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well he was right about the snow anyway, people getting all upset about some kids getting a day off school to piss about making snowmen are miserable gits to a man.

Also, Shami Chakrabarti was kicking arse. In the past I've been annoyed because she's about the only person who ever gets to argue the civil liberties perspective on the news and she's sometimes a bit too equivocal, I think I once heard her say 'well obviously sometimes you have to make some sacrifices for the sake of security' or words to that effect when discussing some new anti-terrorist powers or something. She's much better when she doesn't hold back.

She ripped Geoff Hoon a new one, didn't she? The look of pure contempt in her eyes and the venom in her voice as she tore his equivocations to shreds was beautiful.

 

[London_Calling]

I've have this argument in the past and if the person is of a particular age I tend to find they haven't disassociated 'golly' from 'wog', presumably because they grew up with 'gollywogs' the wog part doesn't usually dawn on them - it's just a single word they grew up with. Generational fing, etc.

 

[zenie]

I've have this argument in the past and if the person is of a particular age I tend to find they haven't disassociated 'golly' from 'wog', presumably because they grew up with 'gollywogs' the wog part doesn't usually dawn on them - it's just a single word they grew up with. Generational fing, etc.

Lots of shops in Cornwall were selling Gollies when I was last there, few friends bought them, does that make them racist?

Calling a mixed-race tennis player a gollywog is pretty unnecessary and thoughtless, wouldn't you say?

 

[London_Calling]

Just a personal view; what's said in private stays in private.


And can I apologise to everyone offened by that. And apologise for taking up your time in apologising. Sorry.

 

[Azrael]

in other words, you are not offended by racism

No. "I'm deeply offended by deliberately racialist images," is pretty explicit. For the record, I'm disgusted by racial bigotry. Kindly don't twist my words, you're not going to paint me as a "racist", so don't bother.

You haven't answered my question: why is it necessary that either I or Mr Young feel a particular emotion, and how do you suggest I go about it?

It's actions that count, but not with the thought police!

 

[scott_forester]

There's this:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Young

Wow he got a C in a subject he's never pursed I can see why they invited him. QTs tendency to invite clebs and newspaper columnist onto their show annoys me deeply. Clebs are there because they want to raise their profile and columnists making a living from throwing bottles from the back row but never have to provides answers the problems that leech off. I wish they would invite people who headed charities, campaigners on specific issues etc - you know, people that do and don't drone.

 

[Fledgling]

Hmm, don't normally bother with QT nayomre; unless it's Brothers Hitchens or Douglas. V. nearly turned of when I saw Hoon and May on but stuck around. Young was a bit difficult to watch, rambled on sometimes. Go Chakrabati against Hoon's pispoor attempts re torture, she has a lot more respect from me now. Farage good value as always, always better with more people not from the three main parties.

 

[marty21]

No. "I'm deeply offended by deliberately racialist images," is pretty explicit. For the record, I'm disgusted by racial bigotry. Kindly don't twist my words, you're not going to paint me as a "racist", so don't bother.

You haven't answered my question: why is it necessary that either I or Mr Young feel a particular emotion, and how do you suggest I go about it?

It's actions that count, but not with the thought police!

and you don't appear to understand that a gollywog is a racist image. it is based on the black minstrels, blacked up white men, pretending to be black men, the stories you refer to, were inspired by these figures, whether they were seen as racist at the time, is not the point, i think on the other thread, the point was made that at time, the opinions of black people were not considered, as was the case in the 70s, when you had shows like "love thy neighbour" "mind your language" and the "black and white mistrel show"

you don't feel that emotion, so it's natural to assume that you are not offended by racist imagery, you're disgusted by racial bigotry, yet don't connect that to gollywogs, that I don't understand

 

[Azrael]

[...] whether they were seen as racist at the time, is not the point [...]

In my view it's important, but that's by the by. Whether the Golliwog is a "racist image" or not, I understand perfectly why people find it offensive (as you can see for youself a page back), and have clearly said I avoid making any reference to it out of politeness.

So, as I'm acknowledging the ugly associations, and respecting the feelings of others, why does it matter whether I'm "offended" or not? This is the real issue here: you seem to be demanding that people feel a certain way, which just isn't on.

 

[marty21]

In my view it's important, but that's by the by. Whether the Golliwog is a "racist image" or not, I understand perfectly why people find it offensive (as you can see for youself a page back), and have clearly said I avoid making any reference to it out of politeness.

So, as I'm acknowledging the ugly associations, and respecting the feelings of others, why does it matter whether I'm "offended" or not? This is the real issue here: you seem to be demanding that people feel a certain way, which just isn't on.

i haven't made any demands , you can feel about any way you want, so you acknowledge that it has ugly associations, that you are respecting the feelings of others - well done you, and yet are not offended, that is what I don't understand....in the 60s and 70s i didn't understand how the term would offend black people, I understand now, in the 60s and 70s the term probably didn't offend me, as i was a kid, it does offend me now, you seem stuck in the 70s, but i don't demand that you change, you stay unoffended

 

[butchersapron]

1870s