Will we ever accept the 'workshy' and just let them get on with it?

[ruffneck23]

It's simple , the Tories never expected to get in last time , certainly don't expect it again, they are just robbing the poor to make sure they are ok for the next 4, 8 or 12 years

 

[weltweit]

......
How many of you claiming work is a good thing would carry on doing your job if you won the Euromillions quintuple roll-over? If not, why not? If you would, you're either lying to yourself or you are in a tiny minority (potentially true, given the demographics of U75).
......

This is a very interesting point.

Yes, if I won millions on the lottery I would stop my job, immediately, yes!

But I wouldn't stop being active, the money would let me be active in more exciting ways.

 

[ruffneck23]

I agree, people dying unexpectedly has caused me to re-evaluate my priorities a bit. If we want to do things, good things, we better get on with it. This week a 14 year old kid was killed in a road accident. A friend recently completed chemo, an uncle died, etc .... better make the most of now, who knows how long we have!

I totally agree over the last 3 years I've lost both my parents and a few friends and very nearly died myself it really changes ones perspective, although I'm not out being ( too ) reckless I do have a feeling of ' what the hell , life is so random and precious you have to live it.' ( saying that after just touching an 8 million quid car and feeling slightly sick )

 

[Fez909]

This is a very interesting point.

Yes, if I won millions on the lottery I would stop my job, immediately, yes!

But I would not stop being active, the money would free me up to be active in more exciting ways.

It's only work if you're forced to do it. Otherwise it's an interest, hobby or past-time.

If you can afford to quit your 'day job' but still choose to occupy your time for 8 hours a day doing something interesting and/or socially beneficial - then that's no longer work, IMO.

Even the phrase 'day job' implies there is a higher, more pleasant activity that you would be doing if it wasn't for the fact that you need money to live. You don't call the non-day job activity your 'night job' as it's not really work: it's pleasurable.

 

[ruffneck23]

I wasn't allowed to touch it , he he , I'm such a rebel

 

[scooter]

In this country there's also the protestant work ethic - that work is in and of itself morally good. It's so pervasive that people don't even realise they are infected with it

 

[ruffneck23]

Religious bullshit to make the poor build their churches

 

[existentialist]

If you can live without working, why work?

Is that truly your attitude? If someone gave you enough money to live without doing any kind of productive activity, would you REALLY be happy to do nothing forever after?

I don't know you at all, but I suspect that, if you're honest, the answer would be "no".

 

[existentialist]

On the other hand, for people who have always been in work, a period of unemployment can be a humbling experience and therefore probably a wholly positive thing. One should be able to recognise that "there by the grace of god go I" etc when considering other people who are not in paid work.

So young, and still so naïve...bless.

 

[ruffneck23]

Is that truly your attitude? If someone gave you enough money to live without doing any kind of productive activity, would you REALLY be happy to do nothing forever after?

I don't know you at all, but I suspect that, if you're honest, the answer would be "no".

This is the thing , I've finally found a job I like, and often have the option to work from home, and when I do I hate it.

I love the interaction with people. But I have had jobs where I've hated every second and don't understand how I tolerated it for so long.

But if I did win the lottery I'd give it all up and travel the world ( and no doubt end up working around it )

 

[existentialist]

This was in fact government policy when the economy was re-focused onto financial services, it was neccesary to have large amounts of people living on benefits.
Post crash these people are being labeled benefit cheats and told they should be working in factories as the economy is re-balanced in favour of manufacturing.

Except that it isn't, really. Well, only - if Disco Dave and Glorious Gideon have they way - on the Chinese model.

 

[ruffneck23]

I've also said to my mates , ' if I win the lottery il give you 100,000 to start your own business , il come back in a year and if you've wasted it , I'm glad you had fun. If I see you're working at it and even if it's not doing well il re-invest'. However as I've got older I do wonder if that makes me sound like a capitalist Cnut , which I'd hate

 

[Humberto]

You are looking at it the wrong way if you are saying the 'workshy' are a burden on society. e.g. those who refuse to work for below the living wage but would rather stay on the dole. A lot of people are simply unemployable. Criminal records, alcoholsim, lack of qualifications or suitable work experience. In some areas you get 50 people applying for every minimum wage job. Most job vacancies go to the already unemployed. Even job agencies don't want to know you if you haven't worked for 6 months. Most unemployed people would love a job but noone wants to know or the jobs aren't there. 'Getting tough' on such people is beyond contempt.

 

[weltweit]

So young, and still so naïve...bless.

I have been called a number of things in my time on Urban but "young" has to be a first !!

Humility is a good thing, as is empathy, all I am saying is that I can empathise with the unemployed, having been one of them.

 

[weltweit]

It's only work if you're forced to do it. Otherwise it's an interest, hobby or past-time.

Is that really true? I am not forced to do the job I do, I decided to do this rather than other things, I am "partially" enjoying it.

If you can afford to quit your 'day job' but still choose to occupy your time for 8 hours a day doing something interesting and/or socially beneficial - then that's no longer work, IMO.

Does Warren Buffet not work? Does Bill Gates no longer work? they don't have to.

Even the phrase 'day job' implies there is a higher, more pleasant activity that you would be doing if it wasn't for the fact that you need money to live. You don't call the non-day job activity your 'night job' as it's not really work: it's pleasurable.

Personally if I won a significant win on the lottery I might well start a new enterprise of a sort ... and I would probably still consider that I was working.

 

[ruffneck23]

When I was unemployed and on the dole I loved it , had fuck all money but was far busier than I've even been in life. At that point with housing benefit , I was better off than I had been working in retail jobs as I had been doing. It was only for about 6 months , then I sorted myself out and went to university , but strangely worked through most of that. If I was to critique the workshy I'd be a fucking hypocrite.

 

[Limerick Red]

You are looking at it the wrong way if you are saying the 'workshy' are a burden on society. e.g. those who refuse to work for below the living wage but would rather stay on the dole. A lot of people are simply unemployable. Criminal records, alcoholsim, lack of qualifications or suitable work experience. In some areas you get 50 people applying for every minimum wage job. Most job vacancies go to the already unemployed. Even job agencies don't want to know you if you haven't worked for 6 months. Most unemployed people would love a job but noone wants to know or the jobs aren't there. 'Getting tough' on such people is beyond contempt.

I remember a mate I lived with, who was quite happy with his life on the dole, was sent for a job interview for manager "xtra-vision" in blackpool in cork by the dole, so, as was the style at the time, if ya didnt want a job ,ya just stuck down all yer criminal record on the application form...me boyo had quite a long one, stuck it all down, turned up and made a purposeful balls of the interview....poor cunt got offered the job.

 

[xenon]

People do talk a lot of bollocks about work. Beyond the financial imperative, what's important I reckon, is feeling useful, part of a community, having connections and autonomy. Stuck in some dead end routine job long term is definitely bad for your mental wellbeing.

I don't actually give a fuck if someone wants to laize around doing fuck all long term. If I knew them, I might be concerned they were depressed or something. But it doesn't effect materially what I'm doing. Sure, I could ponder about the nature of jobs going un-done on the wider social level, the waste of human energy and talent represented by their absence from social productivity but I'm not going to fret about it.

 

[Fez909]

Is that truly your attitude? If someone gave you enough money to live without doing any kind of productive activity, would you REALLY be happy to do nothing forever after?

I don't know you at all, but I suspect that, if you're honest, the answer would be "no".

Why is production a good thing? If it's needed, then fair enough. If not, fuck it.

Unless you count painting a picture as a productive activity. Or cooking a nice meal for yourself.

You are looking at it the wrong way if you are saying the 'workshy' are a burden on society. e.g. those who refuse to work for below the living wage but would rather stay on the dole. A lot of people are simply unemployable. Criminal records, alcoholsim, lack of qualifications or suitable work experience. In some areas you get 50 people applying for every minimum wage job. Most job vacancies go to the already unemployed. Even job agencies don't want to know you if you haven't worked for 6 months. Most unemployed people would love a job but noone wants to know or the jobs aren't there. 'Getting tough' on such people is beyond contempt.

Agree with most of what you say, but the long-term unemployed and people with addictions and criminal records aren't unemployable. I've just got a job after being on the dole for more than a year. I've done 4 days work and I'm already getting good feedback from customers. How does that square with being "unemployable"?

There are other people on this forum who have talked about being long-term unemployed (who I won't name, but you will probably already know about, or could find out about easily enough) who would easily do a good job and I would employ them in a heartbeat.

There's no such thing as unemployable. If someone wants to work, why should a criminal record from 20 years ago stop them? Or a 'gap' in their CV. It's absolute rubbish, and nothing that a tiny bit of training wouldn't solve. In most cases (again, subjective/made-up percentages), the difference in training time between 'long-term' unemployed and fresh from another position would be so small as to be unnoticeable.

 

[ruffneck23]

Ah you got the job , wicked, wasn't sure bout the suit option tho Fez

 

[Mr Moose]

I can't get upset that some people reject the poor jobs on offer. People being creative souls will mostly try to make the best of this position and live creatively. It's not a desirable situation that there are insufficient fulfilling jobs though and there will also be a few people who it suits to opt out of the rat race.

Interestingly though in a world with changed social arrangements the excuse to be 'workshy' dissolves. If you can't point the finger at exploitation who is going to give you and your indie band a year's grace? Unproductive and resistant becomes counter-revolutionary or at the very least, annoying.

 

[ruffneck23]

I remember a mate I lived with, who was quite happy with his life on the dole, was sent for a job interview for manager "xtra-vision" in blackpool in cork by the dole, so, as was the style at the time, if ya didnt want a job ,ya just stuck down all yer criminal record on the application form...me boyo had quite a long one, stuck it all down, turned up and made a purposeful balls of the interview....poor cunt got offered the job.

The ironing it's like a parody of trainspotting

 

[existentialist]

Why is production a good thing? If it's needed, then fair enough. If not, fuck it.

Unless you count painting a picture as a productive activity. Or cooking a nice meal for yourself.

I do. I think we're probably arguing from the same (or a similar) position...

 

[Fez909]

Is that really true? I am not forced to do the job I do, I decided to do this rather than other things, I am "partially" enjoying it.

Forced to work as in you have to work to live; not forced to do that particular role.

If I hold a gun to your head and say you have to pick between downing a glass of piss or eating a shit sandwich, would you still claim you were drinking the piss out of choice?*

Does Warren Buffet not work? Does Bill Gates no longer work? they don't have to.

No, neither of them work.

Personally if I won a significant win on the lottery I might well start a new enterprise of a sort ... and I would probably still consider that I was working.

I wouldn't, but fair enough.
*If you chose the shit sandwich you're a wrong 'un and I'd probably just kill you anyway.

 

[ruffneck23]

I was trying to put your avatar on the top , just freaked me out a little

 

[ruffneck23]

B b but bill gates does chariddy , don't know who the other bloke is but I'm off to google him as he sounds like a tasty meal

 

[Fez909]

I do. I think we're probably arguing from the same (or a similar) position...

I think we are. I'm coming from what is currently called work; whereas you seem to be saying our definition of work is wrong and arguing from a better definition of work?

 

[Humberto]

Agree with most of what you say, but the long-term unemployed and people with addictions and criminal records aren't unemployable. I've just got a job after being on the dole for more than a year. I've done 4 days work and I'm already getting good feedback from customers. How does that square with being "unemployable"?

There are other people on this forum who have talked about being long-term unemployed (who I won't name, but you will probably already know about, or could find out about easily enough) who would easily do a good job and I would employ them in a heartbeat.

There's no such thing as unemployable. If someone wants to work, why should a criminal record from 20 years ago stop them? Or a 'gap' in their CV. It's absolute rubbish, and nothing that a tiny bit of training wouldn't solve. In most cases (again, subjective/made-up percentages), the difference in training time between 'long-term' unemployed and fresh from another position would be so small as to be unnoticeable.

Fair enough. But there must be loads who are too sick to work, haven't worked in years and are struggling with disability who ATOS and the DWP have helpfully decided are fit to work, and so must sign on out of necessity.

 

[ruffneck23]

*If you chose the shit sandwich you're a wrong 'un and I'd probably just kill you anyway.

Can you get a shit sandwich at ' warrens buffet' ?

I have a feeling I'm getting a bit confused. Il try not to share it too much

 

[Fez909]

Fair enough. But there must be loads who are too sick to work, haven't worked in years and are struggling with disability who ATOS and the DWP have helpfully decided are fit to work, and so must sign on out of necessity.

They're not unemployable, though. To be unemployable you must be actively seeking work yet no one can find a use for you. The people you are talking about shouldn't even have to think about working. Our society is advanced enough that those who are "too sick to work" should never have to worry about that sort of thing again.