Will the rise of the internet eventually undermine the Chinese governments power

[machine cat]

It's pretty common for most people in China to have access in some form or another. My inlaws live in rural Hubei and they often come online and talk to my wife on Skype, via a neighbour's computer.

I would still say that the majority would use the internet at a web cafe rather than at home, though, as it's still not very cheap - we paid 50 RMB (5 quid) a month, the average rural person earns about 500 a month. Imagine paying 10% of your salary for interweb, it's not really worth it, and the connection speeds suck.

There is a big difference between rural areas and the major cities. I didn't even use the internet at my in-laws because it was worse than 56k, loads of sites were blocked etc. Yet in Beijing I got really fast broadband, no download/upload limit and only a few sites blocked for 120 Kuai a month.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I had one meg in Dalian, but that still sucks IMO - I get 8 megs here for 14 quid a month. That's 140 RMB, and when you think of it proportionally it's way cheaper than in China. I think we got 50 RMB per month in Dalian because we paid the whole year in advance, if you pay per month it was about 120RMB as well.

 

[machine cat]

There are a few guys on China Daily I do wonder about - some guy called Canchin who goes on and on in a pro PRC government line in every way, a Canadian who is involved in a factory in China, I do suspect that, if he isn't actually paid, that his writing good stuff about the government is a requisite aspect to his continued ability to exploit Chinese labour.

You read that forum?!

 

[machine cat]

A typical internet using family in China:

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

You read that forum?!

I used to read it quite a bit, I think it drew me in when that fucking earthquake thing happened.

(For some reason Urban, but no other non-Chinese site was still accessible at that time, god bless the Editor and his natural-disaster-defying cotton socks)

 

[machine cat]

I had one meg in Dalian, but that still sucks IMO - I get 8 megs here for 14 quid a month. That's 140 RMB, and when you think of it proportionally it's way cheaper than in China. I think we got 50 RMB per month in Dalian because we paid the whole year in advance, if you pay per month it was about 120RMB as well.

Plus there's no earthquakes that completely cut off the internet for two whole months!

 

[machine cat]

I used to read it quite a bit, I think it drew me in when that fucking earthquake thing happened.

(For some reason Urban, but no other non-Chinese site was still accessible at that time, god bless the Editor and his natural-disaster-defying cotton socks)

lol. I just mentioned that

Urban worked for me too

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Yes, that was a fucking joke. How can a country which proclaims itself to be the future global superpower, get its internet totally cut off from the outside world because it is depending on *one cable* which runs along a sea bed?



It's a good thing that I only depended on the internet for shits and giggles (But it did happen in January, during the 2 month paid holiday I had but during which we were saving money so couldn't go away anywhere when all you can do in Dalian is hibernate or go on holiday, it was just typical of my bad luck that it had to happen then, when I had been looking forward to two months of sitting at home drinking beer and using the interweb), if I was in China working for a foreign company and found that suddenly I couldn't communicate with the outside world at all, I'd have been furious.

It just underlined what I often said about China - so much of the hyping up of it as a future great country is just stuff and nonsense, it's a third world country with a few sleek shiny city centres.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

lol. I just mentioned that

Urban worked for me too

It was weird how Urban still worked, wasn't it?

In fact, I remember one other time, when it was the school holidays and the whole school internet got shut down, including the chinese sites (not outside the school, just the school server)

And I could still access Urban then too!



I think editor has special powers...

 

[DotCommunist]

there's been cables cut mysteriously with no quake explanation as well. Chinese/russian/yanqui subs with big scissors?

spose we'll never know.

 

[machine cat]

Yes, that was a fucking joke. How can a country which proclaims itself to be the future global superpower, get its internet totally cut off from the outside world because it is depending on *one cable* which runs along a sea bed?



It's a good thing that I only depended on the internet for shits and giggles (But it did happen in January, during the 2 month paid holiday I had but during which we were saving money so couldn't go away anywhere when all you can do in Dalian is hibernate or go on holiday, it was just typical of my bad luck that it had to happen then), if I was in China working for a foreign company and found that suddenly I couldn't communicate with the outside world at all, I'd have been furious.

It just underlined what I often said about China - so much of the hyping up of it as a future great country is just stuff and nonsense, it's a third world country with a few sleek shiny city centres.

At the time my wife was working for Bertlesmann/Sony BMG which obviously has global offices. HQ in Germany were extremely pissed off that they couldn't communicate with them via email especially as they were organiaing the next Supergirl series
They even threatened not to send Kenny G for a promo they were so pissed off!

I agree with you about the whole 3rd world country with a few nice business districts. All the stuff they showed on TV here during the Olympics was just a small corner of Beijing, which is all skycrapers. The rest is pink and grey matchbox flats and hawkers.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

If they would just admit that they are still very much a work in progress, it would be fine, but you get all sorts of dupes really believing that they are close to overtaking us in living standards and stuff, when really it's absolute hogwash.

 

[machine cat]

It was weird how Urban still worked, wasn't it?

In fact, I remember one other time, when it was the school holidays and the whole school internet got shut down, including the chinese sites (not outside the school, just the school server)

And I could still access Urban then too!



I think editor has special powers...

It worked, albiet slow. Tbh, I don't know how urban works but TCTE doesn't. I think Ed has a deal with the CCP

The Guardian always worked too, despite the fact it has more anti-Chinese articles than the BBC.

 

[JimW]

Was that the time a trawler dredged up the transpacific cable?
I've read that the two gateways (or is it three) make the packet monitoring easier (as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Shield_Project) but not something I'm any expert on.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

It worked, albiet slow. Tbh, I don't know how urban works but TCTE doesn't. I think Ed has a deal with the CCP

The Guardian always worked too, despite the fact it has more anti-Chinese articles than the BBC.

Yeah - do these censors actually read the Western media?

Why the fuck is it that they don't let me access the BBC, which is one of the most fair-minded sites on the Web, and let the Waily Wail site be read freely in China, which is ridiculously OTT often in its criticisms of China?

It makes no sense!

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Was that the time a trawler dredged up the transpacific cable?
I've read that the two gateways (or is it three) make the packet monitoring easier (as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Shield_Project) but not something I'm any expert on.

Wouldn't surprise me. It's totally pathetic though.

 

[DotCommunist]

Yeah - do these censors actually read the Western media?

Why the fuck is it that they don't let me access the BBC, which is one of the most fair-minded sites on the Web, and let the Waily Wail site be read freely in China, which is ridiculously OTT often in its criticisms of China?

It makes no sense!

unless you want your populace to see the western media as narrow minded bigots and xenophobes. Then it makes perfect sense. Divide and conquer.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

unless you want your populace to see the western media as narrow minded bigots and xenophobes. Then it makes perfect sense. Divide and conquer.

True. But I constantly read Chinese people saying what a 'racist' site the BBC is. Even though they can't access it.

They never even mention the Mail, which goes way too far and portrays China as a vicious, dog-beating, baby-abandoning, country...

 

[machine cat]

I think the BBC was blocked mainly due to the fact that it had a Chinese Language version of the site, and probabley the same reason Myspace and Wiki kept coming and going.

Another thing to consider is strategic censorship makes money. What happened when Youtube was blocked? Everyone switched over to Tudou or something similar. More hits = more advertisers = more money for Chinese businesses.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I've heard that DrC - it's probably the actual main reason tbh. Thing is it would violate international trade laws so the government make up some 'evil running dogs of the west' argument

 

[machine cat]

I've heard that DrC - it's probably the actual main reason tbh. Thing is it would violate international trade laws so the government make up some 'evil running dogs of the west' argument

They would have made a tonne of cash if it were true. Have you seen all that crap floating around and popping up on Chinese websites?

 

[isitme]

you can get the bbc now

i've only been here for a short time but it's the poverty that strikes me much more than the police presence/stasi etc

the chinese government don't seem all powerful at all, much more black economy than in england. i'd imagine it's the same as most oversized beauocracies in that it isn't really one thing with one message, absolute chaos under this veneer of a harsh government.

hu jintao is very very smart tho, i think he's playing up this 'we are the new superpower' very cleverly and managing to keep focus away from the deprivation. so much of the media focuses on fucking tibet and the dalai lama etc which HJ probably loves tbh because it has quite a few sides and makes china look big and unified, even if it does piss off a few hippies and actors

sometimes i must admit, i think if i could make the choice with england i'd give up access to youtube and the right to go to political meetings or do falun gong in exchange for such a good bus service and cheap cigarettes

 

[machine cat]

the chinese government don't seem all powerful at all, much more black economy than in england. i'd imagine it's the same as most oversized beauocracies in that it isn't really one thing with one message, absolute chaos under this veneer of a harsh government.

hu jintao is very very smart tho, i think he's playing up this 'we are the new superpower' very cleverly and managing to keep focus away from the deprivation. so much of the media focuses on fucking tibet and the dalai lama etc which HJ probably loves tbh because it has quite a few sides and makes china look big and unified, even if it does piss off a few hippies and actors

They are and they aren't all powerfull iyswim. Most days everything seems like absolute chaos, people doing whatever they want, open illegal activity on the street, corruption in local government and police forces etc. Yet wait until there's a new campaign - propaganda everywhere, police checks and raids on brothels/drug dens/whatever they dislike that week on a huge scale.

All channels on the TV will focus on one thing and one thing only. Almost 100 channels showing a rocket blasting into space/plane landing in Taiwan on a continuous loop.

It's like when a teacher comes back into a room of year 10s and everyone stops mucking around and sits up straight, a few are bollocked and sent to the headmaster.

Also, wait until there's a big event in your city. Whole districts will be blocked off, roads closed and all the poor people seem to dissappear.

 

[isitme]

they did a crackdown on street markets last month, i didn't see it but loads of the people who used to sell things downtown were apparently bundled off into vans by riot police style people and they haven't come back

but i meant that even within the beaurocracy, i bet these orders and purges and so on are really garbled and made by lots of conflicting agencies chinese whispers style (hohoho)

i think it's always important to remember that china is absolutely nowhere near being a developed country so the chinese government being so harsh doesn't affect everyone absolutely the way that it would in west europe, you could hide much more easily, there are still parts of china with no roads or phones....

 

[machine cat]

i think it's always important to remember that china is absolutely nowhere near being a developed country so the chinese government being so harsh doesn't affect everyone absolutely the way that it would in west europe, you could hide much more easily, there are still parts of china with no roads or phones....

I remember a BBC report on internet censorship just before the Olympics and the journo was going through a load of websites showing the audience which ones were blocked.

Now, blocking CNN and Facebook may inconvenience English speaking businessmen or bored expats, but it's not really gonna effect your typical farmer in rural Anhui province like the Beeb made it out to be.

 

[isitme]

and one of my students is always showing me stuff from CNN that he's downloaded onto his phone, so it isn't that blocked....

i wouldn't be surprised if the west became more like them than they became like the west, with full internet access turning into the preserve of the elite

 

[tangentlama]

The original post here is somewhat inaccurate. There is no "chip"; the Chinese government are mandating that a particular piece of censorware is installed on all new machines, which can be disabled, or so it is claimed (if it's software, people will be able to disable it certainly, but there will be a lot of people who won't).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/08/web-blocking-software-china

The justification for it is that it will be blocking pornography. You know, for the children. You can't see the list of blocked sites and would only know if you couldn't get to it and other, unblocked, people could.

Does any of this sound familiar at all? BT and several other UK ISPs already do this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Watch_Foundation

See also Political censorship via spam filtering - Letter to friends by Moshé Machover, 2005

Dear Friend,

The issue I am writing to you about is of the utmost importance and seriousness: it involves a grave threat to our freedom of expression and communication. In brief, it concerns a sinister imposition of US-based, but world-wide, political censorship in the guise of “filtering of spam”.

 

[JimW]

New Harvard report on censorship of social media, fits with my experience:

Contrary to previous understandings, posts with negative, even vitriolic, criticism of the state, its leaders, and its policies are not more likely to be censored. Instead, we show that the censorship program is aimed at curtailing collective action by silencing comments that represent, reinforce, or spur social mobilization, regardless of content.

Summary report here: http://tealeafnation.com/2012/06/ha...ticize-the-government-on-chinas-social-media/