Will people stop bothering with university?

[chio]

it doesn't but then its on record that the official line (will hunt reference if someone wants) that with the increased fees, and the cap to come off fees in the next couple of years that "some universities will just go to the wall"

so marketing is important to try and stop that happening - its not just about peoples jobs but access to education in areas that are either remote or non-traditional areas

This place (in a small industrial city) has done quite well considering the pressures on it. Admissions this year have actually gone up, despite the fee increase and the general decline in admissions nationally.

Most of it, though, isn't people moving in from other areas to come to study here - they're actually targetting people from this city who'd not normally have ever considered going to uni in the first place.

I reckon, with the silly fees they're charging, that's probably the future for a lot of these newer universities; accommodation is very expensive for what you get and I predict we'll see a lot more people staying at home and commuting to a nearby uni unless there's a course they really want to do that's only available further afield.

 

[baldrick]

reading books in a library doesn't cost money.

yes it does! they've got to get them from somewhere and provide enough copies for everyone to get a look - reading lists will change every year. Beyond that there will be subscriptions to thousands of journals. This is why posh people call it "reading" a degree.

i guess i thought there would be more discussion and talking and, dare i say it, guidance.

Then pop in to see your module/course/personal tutor and ask questions - they'll like you . If that gets no joy, go see your head of year. I appreciate it's a lot different from what you're used to, but when i think back to my first year in biology i had 10 hours a week (and 6 of that was lab time, which you wouldn't have in an arts degree).

 

[scifisam]

I had either twelve or 16 hours a week in my first year - 3 or 4 courses of a one hour tutorial plus a 3 hour seminar. That was on an Eng. Lit. degree. 4 hours does seem ridiculously little.

 

[Azrael]

I think it's awful that fees are so high- it undermines those who go to uni because they're passionate about their subject.

How? If you're passionate about your subject you should be willing to pay the required cost of furthering your passion. In every other area of life you have to pay to pursue your hobbies (essentially what a degree taken for non-economic reasons is) so why should education be any different?

In my personal experience I'm the only student who actually supports paying the full cost of my degree through a system of income-capped loans. I see no reason why the state should pay for my own personal benefit. How is it right that high-earning taxpayers without degrees directly fund the competition? Or indeed, that any citizen furthers another's earning power?

I'm all for loans to help poor students take degrees. Equality of access is essential. But we must remember that the old funding arrangements were univable: English universities are now some £8bn underfunded. The coffers of the state can't keep up with the demands of the market. The real problem is that a free-market system is being used to engineer socialistic ends, and the result is going to be a disaster. University by its very nature must be for the elite. Dragging 50% of the population through its doors only devalues degrees and denies most of the poor indebted souls the high-quality vocational education they might thrive on.

Until we get a genuinely liberal government willing to break with this socialistic baggage, everyone looses out.

 

[jæd]

Dragging 50% of the population through its doors only devalues degrees and denies most of the poor indebted souls the high-quality vocational education they might thrive on.

Try to explain this to MPs who seem to think that having increasing A-level results means that pupils are increasingly intelligent... *Access* to a place at university should be open to all, but being able to win that place should only be open to a minority of capable students.

 

[J77]

Until we get a genuinely liberal government willing to break with this socialistic baggage, everyone looses out.

Sorry, it's a pedantic pet-hate but...

loses !!!

 

[Azrael]

Good thing I decided against the English Lit degree.

 

[Cloo]

The other thing that's happening now, of course, is that I have seen job ads specifying 'red brick' university grads... ie, in employer's eyes there are two tiers of unis - older established and ex polys and never the twain shall meet. Which is dreadful, of course, but a clear sign that one way or another, not all degree are equal in a world where loads of people have them.

 

[Roadkill]

I'm firmly in the camp that says there are too many people going to university. I don't want to speculate on what percentage *should* be doing so, but 50% is a nonsense.

My prescription would be that far fewer people should go to university, but there should be grants (means-tested if necessary) for those who do go, topped up with loans. As a corollary to this, there should be far more support for technical and vocational education than there currently is.

I think a smaller university system would be in a much better position to offer a high-quality degree programme to undergraduates, and there would be none of the damaging divide between research and teaching universities that seems to be emerging. The two - IMO and IME - should not be separated. Part of the point of a university education is to engage in current and cutting-edge research: it's hard to see how you can do that if you're at an institution which doesn't do any research at all.

 

[Hollis]

The other thing that's happening now, of course, is that I have seen job ads specifying 'red brick' university grads... ie, in employer's eyes there are two tiers of unis - older established and ex polys and never the twain shall meet. Which is dreadful, of course, but a clear sign that one way or another, not all degree are equal in a world where loads of people have them.

That's always been the case though.. my first employer basically recruited from about 8-9 universities.

 

[J77]

My prescription would be that far fewer people should go to university, but there should be grants (means-tested if necessary) for those who do go, topped up with loans. As a corollary to this, there should be far more support for technical and vocational education than there currently is.

Like it was in the 80s and 90s, then?

 

[aqua]

I'd like to suggest that around 20-25% participation would be about right tbh

but then I'd also like to see nursing and teaching taken back into specialist areas rather than trying to make them fit into a uni structure

 

[Roadkill]

Like it was in the 80s and 90s, then?

Up to a point.

I don't know enough about the polytechnics (as were) to say whether re-establishing something much like them would be a good idea or whether soemthing different would work better.

 

[_angel_]

I'd like to suggest that around 20-25% participation would be about right tbh

but then I'd also like to see nursing and teaching taken back into specialist areas rather than trying to make them fit into a uni structure

They already are specialist areas.


Don't think it's up to a government to determine how many people ought to go to university though.

 

[frogwoman]

just to add, I also think fees as they are are fucking disgusting

let alone whats going to happen when the £3k cap is removed

Innit, it makes me feel sick tbh.

 

[frogwoman]

to be fair i really enjoy my seminars, they're not like the horror stories other people have told about them, although i do get the feeling that there are some people who really can't be fucked to be here Not on my course and i haven't come across many in my halls but they do exist, but i guess you would have got that ten years ago as well ... you get it everywhere I guess.

 

[aqua]

They already are specialist areas.

actually no they're not, they lost a lot of their specialist status by becoming part of university structured courses to fit into that world, I've not met many people who think this move has been for the benefit of students

Don't think it's up to a government to determine how many people ought to go to university though.

Do you not? so who would you suggest its up to? A random happening that some people get to have access to becuase of their *cultural capital* and knowing the rules or a open system where hopefully everyone would have access?

and who would fund the university if the government aren't involved? the students fund every part of it themselves?

 

[aqua]

to be fair i really enjoy my seminars, they're not like the horror stories other people have told about them, although i do get the feeling that there are some people who really can't be fucked to be here Not on my course and i haven't come across many in my halls but they do exist, but i guess you would have got that ten years ago as well ... you get it everywhere I guess.

yes I think they did exist just not in the numbers at the moment. Sadly a lot of students feel that they are expected to go, irrelevant of what they want, and they tend to be the ones who are disinterested

 

[_angel_]

actually no they're not, they lost a lot of their specialist status by becoming part of university structured courses to fit into that world, I've not met many people who think this move has been for the benefit of students



Do you not? so who would you suggest its up to? A random happening that some people get to have access to becuase of their *cultural capital* and knowing the rules or a open system where hopefully everyone would have access?

and who would fund the university if the government aren't involved? the students fund every part of it themselves?

Why are you frothing on about funding?


It's up to people to decide if they want to go to university. In this country we can easily afford to pay the tuition of anyone who wants to go but there isn't the political will to do this.


I think a lot of people are upset by the idea that actually most people are capable of some kind of tertiary education, if they wanted it. It upsets their innate sense of superiority when they see a majority of people able to get a degree.


Having said that I'd question what people are paying for in some of these places having read this thread - one essay a term!

 

[jæd]

I think a lot of people are upset by the idea that actually most people are capable of some kind of tertiary education, if they wanted it. It upsets their innate sense of superiority when they see a majority of people able to get a degree.

If you have the majority (ie, most) people with a degree then you've just undermined the value of a degree. So surely the Universities should have a say in how many get to be admitted...?

 

[_angel_]

If you have the majority (ie, most) people with a degree then you've just undermined the value of a degree. So surely the Universities should have a say in how many get to be admitted...?

The universities have a right to decide mow many people they can deal with. It's not up to the government to decide how many people should go.


Remember universities are publicly funded so why shouldn't the public be able to go?


'Devalued' that's what people are worried about. That shouldn't have to happen necessarily. Having a more educated society as a whole should be a good thing. As long as people realise they aren't necessarily going to walk into a high paying job as a result of having a degree.


I'd be less worried about the numbers of people and more at looking at the quality of what is being offered tbh. Contrary to popular belief I think you can have quantity and quality.

 

[jæd]

Remember universities are publicly funded so why shouldn't the public be able to go?

The Public should be able to go, but there's not much point if they all fail the first exams...!

Having a more educated society as a whole should be a good thing.

Yep, but that won't happen by magic, and there are lots of pointers that this isn't happening at the moment...!

 

[Azrael]

The other thing that's happening now, of course, is that I have seen job ads specifying 'red brick' university grads...

If the government destroys one elite the market will create a new one. Soon, I imagine, those advertisements will state "University of London, Bristol, Durham, Oxbridge", then simply "Oxbridge", thus undoing two-centuries of progress. University status used to be awarded to technical institutions that had grown naturally. It was much prized and the universities increased slowly with demand. Who knows how many would have emerged if social engingeering hadn't made "university" a near-meaningless term.

and who would fund the university if the government aren't involved? the students fund every part of it themselves?

Students would fund a large part through fees, industry funds other parts, and alumni make generous endowments. American universities work on this system and are much richer than their British counterparts. (Which, it should be noted, were privately funded until after the Great War.)

It's up to people to decide if they want to go to university. In this country we can easily afford to pay the tuition of anyone who wants to go but there isn't the political will to do this.

No we can't, the bill would run into the tens of billions.

I think a lot of people are upset by the idea that actually most people are capable of some kind of tertiary education, if they wanted it. It upsets their innate sense of superiority when they see a majority of people able to get a degree.

Or perhaps we recognize that everyone isn't equal in ability regardless of what our political dogma tells us to think. Perhaps we want people who aren't suited to university to have a high-quality vocational education and perhaps earn a good living at a job they enjoy, instead of struggling to pay off needless debt from a worthless degree they felt forced to take. Perhaps we've seen that universities are inventing new courses and accept lower grades to make up the numbers.

Perhaps we don't have to be a bunch of bigoted snobs to think differently to you. (What was that you were saying about an innate sense of superiority?)