Will people stop bothering with university?

[bruise]

but, just to put a counter view - electrogirl points out what many use uni for. it's a waste of taxpayers money. every 18 y o should be forced to party hard and travel for two years. get it out of their system, see a bit of the world, and then, and only then, get to go to uni.

it's like the course tutor should be checking that they've done the drugs / booze / partying bit, got it out of their system and have some real reason to want to study (either the interest of the subject, or vocational reasons, whichever)

my experience (back when we had grants) was that 95% of students were a complete waste of space and shouldn't be at uni. they barely knew why they were there, except to leave parents and come to London. they were insulated from 'London' as such, didn't pay much attention to the course, there weren't any stimulating discussions for those of us few who were actually interested, and we had to pretend to be interested in them discovering class As for the first time. bless.

i hate what they are doing now to uni students - but i'm not sure the previous system was that defensible either. we have to get a bit real about what uni should be for - and as far as i'm concerned, it shouldn't just be about creating a comfort zone to delay adulthood for a few more years.

 

[ELO]

I think university is structured badly, my idea of what ti was going to be is very different to the reality of 4 hours a week , students schlepping in, hungover, apathetic, have about as much discussion as you can in an hour and then trotting home to watch neighbours.

Is it really *4 hours*?!?. Obviously you will have work on top of that, but even so.

If I could study year round for a reasonable number of hours a week, this wouldn't take me four bleedin years and much less debt.

Normally I'm used to 37 hour weeks (minimum) with 4 weeks holidays. Now doing something other than the '9 to 5' for a while is one of the things I'm looking foward to, but 4 hours is fucking ridiculous

 

[baldrick]

but, just to put a counter view - electrogirl points out what many use uni for. it's a waste of taxpayers money. every 18 y o should be forced to party hard and travel for two years. get it out of their system, see a bit of the world, and then, and only then, get to go to uni.

i totally agree. i worked for a year before i went to uni and i don't think it's a coincidence that most of the mates i made were in the same position, mature students, or doing further degrees. Most first year students are a waste of space, imo.

 

[chio]

Is it really *4 hours*?!?. Obviously you will have work on top of that, but even so.

There was a big thing the other day in the education bit of the Guardian about that; apparently, the newer unis have far more of an emphasis on actual structured time while the traditional places like Bristol or Manchester don't... to be honest, I think I'd prefer the latter personally, more time to actually do your own stuff rather than sitting and listening to (on the whole, not very fruitful) lectures. Having said that, I'd only prefer that if the other students were willing to work, too...

 

[J77]

I think university is structured badly, my idea of what ti was going to be is very different to the reality of 4 hours a week, students schlepping in, hungover, apathetic, have about as much discussion as you can in an hour and then trotting home to watch neighbours.

Of course, it depends on the course.

Generally speaking tho', I think university courses shouldn't be structured. It shouldn't be like school; you shouldn't sit there for three years being taught how to answer questions in a final exam.

However, with the governments target of sending students to uni irrespective of whether they can cope with the standard which should be required, I think courses will become more and more structured, with modular exams to ensure that pupils don't fail.

In the end, I think we'll revert to a system with two tiers - like when we had unis and polys. The big-hitters + some of the old polys which do good research versus the rest.

 

[aqua]

in a seminar recently someone asked why students were taught so differently at uni

one of the lecturers said because it wasn't just about learning, but that students should be adding to knowledge - that seems to be being lost

 

[ELO]

There was a big thing the other day in the education bit of the Guardian about that; apparently, the newer unis have far more of an emphasis on actual structured time while the traditional places like Bristol or Manchester don't... to be honest, I think I'd prefer the latter personally,

And I'd prefer the former Proberby coming from a work background, where I'm used to having my time structured. If I was only going to get 4 hours contact a week I might as well be on the dole doing an OU course.

Lucky I'm going to a new uni, then

 

[chio]

In the end, I think we'll revert to a system with two tiers - like when we had unis and polys. The big-hitters + some of the old polys which do good research versus the rest.

I hope so. I don't think the proliferation of university places and degrees in the past few years has really been for the best; a more traditional system would probably work more effectively, with the more vocational degree courses having their degree status taken away and being run as just vocational courses.

 

[aqua]

I don't think its a case of "taking things away" but accepting that there is a need for different teaching/learning and research by industry, students AND lecturers

its just confusing at the moment to have everything called university. It doesn't benefit those that are supposed to benefit, just the professors who get to say they're at a uni now and not poly

the issue was with the perceived 2 tier quality that unis and polys had, but that hasn't been addressed by a name change, its deeper than that and reflects the way this country views anything thats not "academic"

 

[electrogirl]

There was a big thing the other day in the education bit of the Guardian about that; apparently, the newer unis have far more of an emphasis on actual structured time while the traditional places like Bristol or Manchester don't... to be honest, I think I'd prefer the latter personally, more time to actually do your own stuff rather than sitting and listening to (on the whole, not very fruitful) lectures. Having said that, I'd only prefer that if the other students were willing to work, too...

I agree, degree's are definitely about independent learning. However, what are students paying for then? I have to give in one assessed essay for a whole term. That's one piece of work over 12 weeks! It's just ridiculous that I worked harder at A Level.

I don't know if many people know the apathy that goes on at uni, when I tell people I have 4 hourse a week most people are genuinely shocked. I just think the whole structure needs to be looked at.

 

[aqua]

no I totally disagree actually - your 2 areas ar ebeing confused

you're being asked to pay cos they want so many people to go through uni it can't be funded centrally (even with £3k you're not paying anywhere near how much it costs to get you through) - there are many of us who think the target is ridiculous and unacheiveable

then theres the contact time - 4hours isn't stupid, 4hours is supposed to be the guiding points then you go and add in the rest. one essay a term? is that all you think your lecturers do?

its not like a levels, its never supposed to be a levels, its not about spoon feeding

sadly people think they're buying an education, you're not

 

[aqua]

just to add, I also think fees as they are are fucking disgusting

let alone whats going to happen when the £3k cap is removed

 

[J77]

That pretty much sums up the situation.

Anyone got any facts and figures relating to the small sum (which, imo, should still be lea-like provided but numbers etc...) that students pay and the running costs of a uni?

 

[aqua]

what the whole amount of student funding and government funding?

I have something like that somewhere but as you know I'm disappearing fast under a pile of papers

 

[J77]

what the whole amount of student funding and government funding?

Yeah - I wonder how much loss/profit unis make and expect to make in the future.

I know that it's well publicised that Cambridge make a loss but have so much property in key locations, they're laughing.

(eg: http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/press/dpp/2004052601)

 

[electrogirl]

no I totally disagree actually - your 2 areas ar ebeing confused

you're being asked to pay cos they want so many people to go through uni it can't be funded centrally (even with £3k you're not paying anywhere near how much it costs to get you through) - there are many of us who think the target is ridiculous and unacheiveable

then theres the contact time - 4hours isn't stupid, 4hours is supposed to be the guiding points then you go and add in the rest. one essay a term? is that all you think your lecturers do?

its not like a levels, its never supposed to be a levels, its not about spoon feeding

sadly people think they're buying an education, you're not

i still disagree, if we're paying for the status of having a degree rather than an education then that is disgusting. I don't expect to be spoon fed but i don't expect for my degree to consist of me readingbooks, i can do that in my own time thanks.

if i'm not paying for education, what am i paying for?

 

[aqua]

the official line we're saying (thats not government line) is that you're contributing to your education

don't get me wrong, I don't think you should be, but then I don't think we should have 50% of the country aged 18-30 having degrees either

you should be engaged in tutorials, group work, reading extra stuff and contributing to knowledge even at an undergraduate level

contact time varies significantly with subject areas, which is understandable, you shouldn't be able to get a taught fine arts degree for example

you're not paying for a product, its not like you go to uni and think "I've paid this money I want a degree" without putting in a hell of a lot of work - you wouldn't go to weightwatchers, pay the subscription and expect to lose weight without putting in work

 

[chio]

don't get me wrong, I don't think you should be, but then I don't think we should have 50% of the country aged 18-30 having degrees either

Thank goodness someone else thinks the same as me!

I just don't get the logic behind sending such vast numbers of people to university - it just devalues degrees and makes life more difficult both for those with degrees and those left without them. It means employers are demanding graduates for even the most basic admin positions in some cases, pushing graduate pay down and making it that bit harder for non-graduates to find stable, reasonably paid work.

 

[aqua]

its a ridiculous agreement and the participation figures taken from europe which is nonsense as they have far far higher attrition rates than we do

its meaningless and isn't actually addressing the issues we have in this country of basic (level 2) literacy and numeracy

thats not to say that people who traditionally wouldn't go to uni shouldn't, but the way to address that isn't increasing the numbers but making opportuntiy there to all and not just those who are traditional students or have the money

its all abit to cock tbh, and the last I heard Oxbridge were suggesting yearly fees of nearly £15k

yes cos thats going to help bridge the gap between the haves and the have nots isn't it

 

[aqua]

its also really indicative of the "value" we place (we being not me and you but the royal we ) on vocational jobs etc, which are seen as being worse than second best

 

[electrogirl]

you're not paying for a product, its not like you go to uni and think "I've paid this money I want a degree" without putting in a hell of a lot of work - you wouldn't go to weightwatchers, pay the subscription and expect to lose weight without putting in work

that's not what i'm saying at all, i've already said that i agree that there is alot of independent learning involved. but i am also paying money, reading books in a library doesn't cost money. i guess i thought there would be more discussion and talking and, dare i say it, guidance. just because we've done a levels doesn't mean we are suddenly geniuses who don't need someone more experienced to guide us in the right direction.

 

[J77]

i still disagree, if we're paying for the status of having a degree rather than an education then that is disgusting. I don't expect to be spoon fed but i don't expect for my degree to consist of me readingbooks, i can do that in my own time thanks.

if i'm not paying for education, what am i paying for?

To discuss this I think we have to assume (right or wrong) that fees are being paid...

If you self-study, you still don't get the same out of it as being at uni. There's not only your 4 hours a week with your tutor, marking of an essay plus all the other admin which goes into your uni life; more importantly, there's the interaction and opportunity you have for discussion with your fellow students - 3k a year seems cheap to have all this organised for you. This is what you pay for.

 

[aqua]

then tell your lecturers that! arrange a group and make them attend

I know they don't have the same impact anymore but they are making a return but go talk to your student union and see what they say

it might be a problem with one lecturer or something that you as a student won't find out about (well you can, just takes a bit of poking!)

what subject are you doing if you don't mind me asking

 

[chio]

tbh I don't know what the fuck my university wants to be... half the time they're just a conference centre with a half-arsed uni attached, now they're doing something to do with professional footballers

 

[aqua]

universities do loads of stuff, and thats often to the benefit of students

conference centres are needed to bring in money as there is a loss attached to all universities, and students want clean windows, new pc's, wireless internet access, subsidised catering and accommodation, libraries stocked, grass cut etc etc etc

 

[chio]

They do, however, seem to spend staggering sums on flashy TV and radio advertising and will do absolutely anything for publicity. If they're that strapped for cash, how come they're sponsoring competitions and advertising on big regional radio stations (eg. Kerrang in the West Midlands), putting ads on national ITV etc? It doesn't come cheap.

 

[aqua]

it doesn't but then its on record that the official line (will hunt reference if someone wants) that with the increased fees, and the cap to come off fees in the next couple of years that "some universities will just go to the wall"

so marketing is important to try and stop that happening - its not just about peoples jobs but access to education in areas that are either remote or non-traditional areas

 

[J77]

it doesn't but then its on record that the official line (will hunt reference if someone wants) that with the increased fees, and the cap to come off fees in the next couple of years that "some universities will just go to the wall"

so marketing is important to try and stop that happening - its not just about peoples jobs but access to education in areas that are either remote or non-traditional areas

I expect there's more marketing in the 'newer' unis - ie. the ones with less of a reputation.

It's tricky.

I don't think it a good idea to have loads of unis but I see the introduction of large fees from the big guns (Oxbridge, Imperial, Bristol etc.) resulting the lesser valued unis going under - or joining with the old boys.

However, I don't want to see the introduction of larger fees because it will stop people going to uni who can't afford them - particularly for art type subjects where there isn't a distinct career goal - no matter what support is given by gov or unis.

Two things which have screwed the system up - the abolition of vocational polys and the 50% thing

 

[bruise]

that's not what i'm saying at all, i've already said that i agree that there is alot of independent learning involved. but i am also paying money, reading books in a library doesn't cost money. i guess i thought there would be more discussion and talking and, dare i say it, guidance. just because we've done a levels doesn't mean we are suddenly geniuses who don't need someone more experienced to guide us in the right direction.

i think you're right to be pissed off and question what your uni is doing.

i doubt if it makes you feel better - but we had a much more involved system of lectures and tutorials - and the tutorials consisted of one or at most two (usually older) students attempting to engage and who had done some of the reading, an embarrassed lecturer who seemed to have no people skills and a group of silent students who had done no reading at all, who weren't interested and were just waiting for the hour to be over... when they bothered to turn up at all.

not an inspiring experience

 

[aqua]

totally agree J77

there is no value to renaming the polys, not from where I'm stood anyway

unless you have the knowledge of what unis are good at what (I went to a poly as theres no way I wanted an academic style course, I wanted different teaching etc and cos of my family I knew the difference) you're more likely to make the wrong choice as there is no differentiation by name

the students are the ones who lose out

it reminds me of renaming failing schools, a name change isn't going to help the underlying problems which for polys was the reputation

increasing quality of teaching etc isn't addressed by saying you're a uni now

as for the 50% thing don't even get me started I heard a rumour thats supposed to be going up too I really fucking hope the peson who told me got it seriously wrong