Will Europeans rid themselves of ignorance?

[TeeJay]

Your paragraphs largely cancels itself out.

If the state 'allows all it's citizens (this isn't the UK then btw) to live the lifestyle they choose' but should also 'step in where those beliefs impact negatively on others' then how can you have religious freedom? Many religions have a duty to proselytize and to 'bear witness'. This means, for example, christian pickets of gay partnership ceremonies, muslim protests at cartoons, catholic groups trying to interfere in the law surrounding abortion, buddhists roaming the streets in gangs, beating people up. At least, they said they were Buddhists..... maybe I misheard. I digress.

I reject that there is a necessary or automatic connection between persuading people about your views and beliefs and roaming around beating people up or otherwise harassing and oppressing people. There are plenty of people who seek to persuade other to their view (every single political party for a start, or at a banal level someone advertising their brand of beer). There are also plenty of nasty types who roam the streets beating people up, who aren't religious. You have failed to show that it is the religious aspect that makes it repressive, or that religion is inherently (as opposed to sometimes) oppresive.

Religion has no place in public life. Quite the contrary, religion is so potentially dangerous that the state has a duty, it's primary duty of protecting 'citizens', to step in and regulate it. No church indoctrination schools, no baptism, no enforced religious practises. And while we're on, no tax breaks, no religious leaders legislating or lobbying, no restricted drinking on a Sunday. Oh, we got that last one didn't we? A good start.

You saw what I said about an "open society". I don't support the state favouring any particular religion. However you are advocating an highly oppressive and authroitarian society where the government polices what people should think and how they live their lives. In fact you seem to be more in favour of oppression and destroying freedoms than most religious people I know.

"no enforced religious practises" - where exactly do you live? Not in the UK surely? Who is being forced to be religious in the UK?

 

[Binkie]

who gives a flying fuck about the irrational beliefs of the ancients .
We have enough idiots causing trouble for precived insults to their beliefs .
I hope the flying spagehti monster eats them all

There is clearly no such thing as the flying spaghetti monster and people who think there is are misinformed. However I can see that if I criticize or draw the flying spaghetti monster (pbuh) you have every right to cut off my head. In the name of the flying spaghetti monster (pbuh).

 

[foggypane]

I A reject that there is a necessary or automatic connection between persuading people about your views and beliefs and roaming around beating people up or otherwise harassing and oppressing people. B There are plenty of people who seek to persuade other to their view (every single political party for a start, or at a banal level someone advertising their brand of beer). C There are also plenty of nasty types who roam the streets beating people up, who aren't religious. You have failed to show that it is the religious aspect that makes it repressive, or that D religion is inherently (as opposed to sometimes) oppresive. You saw what I said about an "open society". I don't support the state favouring any particular religion. However E you are advocating an highly oppressive and authroitarian society where the government polices what people should think and how they live their lives. In fact you seem to be more in F favour of oppression and destroying freedoms than most religious people I know.
"no enforced religious practises" - where exactly do you live? Not in the UK surely? G Who is being forced to be religious in the UK?

A A poor joke about violent Buddhists. Sorry.

B Several possible responses here - primarily, I don't so much mind attempts to persuade me of relatively rational things.

C I'm against that too, but this thread is about religion.

D Xianity and islam are certainly inherently oppressive. Look around you and in history books

E it's the job of govt. to balance freedoms. Religion is a private matter, or should be.

F it's only oppression when something you like gets banned. Any Catholic would cheerfully introduce a ban on abortion. Most would on contraception and even extramarital sex. Various religions would ban homosexuality and even democracy.

We have spent long centuries in this country getting away from this sort of religio-fascism.

G many a child in a religious school. Many more if mad Tony gets his way.


H. Just how do you do that multiple quote thing?

 

[nick1181]

H. Just how do you do that multiple quote thing?

you type {QUOTE} words words etc {/QUOTE}

except instead of using { you use [

so

hello

would look like {Quote}hello{/QUOTE}

and you can have nested ones eg:

hello1

hello2

{Quote}hello1
{Quote}hello2{/QUOTE}
{/QUOTE}

 

[foggypane]

[QUOTE}

you type {QUOTE} words words etc {/QUOTE}

Thanks. That's brilliant.

How do you get sexy girls to like you and give you money and drugs?

 

[nick1181]

How do you get sexy girls to like you and give you money and drugs?

Give them money and drugs first?

 

[foggypane]

I'll give it a try.

 

[Aldebaran]

I challenge you in return to find one who doesn't.

Try me.

salaam.

 

[foggypane]

Try me.

salaam.

Marhaban. (ain't t'internet great? I just learned my first Arabic word!)

Go on then - I'm game. Are you a theologian (not theologist - oops ) who claims that religion is not founded upon assumptions and faith?

BTW, have you read this thread - I think this was pretty much a derail....

 

[Aldebaran]

Marhaban. (ain't t'internet great? I just learned my first Arabic word!)

sjukran

Go on then - I'm game. Are you a theologian (not theologist - oops ) who claims that religion is not founded upon assumptions and faith?

My first academic discipline was Islamic Studies. Hence Islamic theology is one of the fields covered by this studyfield. Yet even without such a background one can discuss religion or the question if God yes or no exists. You don't even need to be religious.

If you want to discuss religion, that is an other matter then discussing the question "Does God exist ?".
Religion can be - more or less satisfactory - explained from a purely sociological point of view.
The issue "Does God exist" I am used to approach with a mixture of philosophy and logic.
People used to the commonly applied logical patterns will find my logical reasoning falling outside such narrowed frames. To me there is nothing so restrictive as the use of what is understood by "logic" when you don't risk - or do not want - to reason outside its inherent limitations.

BTW, have you read this thread - I think this was pretty much a derail....

In my view it would be better to start another thread. If you - and others - want to set up a little discussion on this, I can come back to particpate in such a thread saturday or in any case on sunday.

salaam.

 

[foggypane]

Your last sounds reasonable.

My position is this: Religion is a social phenomenom, granted, and one which fulfills many functions. Some of these are benign, some neutral, some malign. Also, not all of the functions are necessarily clear to the followers of the religion, and not all the stated functions are true ones. Many masked purposes are behind religious matters.

However, at face value, the theistic religions are, to believers, founded on an assumption (that there is a god) and faith (that god's rules if followed will have a benefit to the believer)

Having granted the assumption, it is the case that learned scholars work hard at questions of faith. These studies are only of any great value if the assumption is true. Otherwise they are interesting, possibly illuminating in many ways, but ultimately perhaps trivial.


ila l-liqa

 

[Aldebaran]

Since this isn't a thread about these questions... Could you start one to provide for a frame for the discussion and we go from there?

salaam.