Why the welfare state MUST end?

[TomPaine]

I've been reading a fair bit recently about the idea of getting rid of income tax full stop and finding a better taxation method.
After all taxation should only exist to provide services to the country i.e. NHS, Fire, Police etc. and a safety net for those members of society who can't work because of illness and disability.
I get the impression for some people they like to see the Tax system as some kind of "revenge" against society (not aimed at anyone here, but I've heard plenty of moaning bastards who are also hypocirts..) which isn't really a healthy view IMO.

I think people feel totally disconnected from what their tax money is spent on so resent the system even more.

TomPaine

 

[treelover]

You souns like one a Tory there

 

[TomPaine]

You souns like one a Tory there

Errr no I don't. I don't believe politicians should hold positions in industry whilst serving as an MP for a start. I also don't agree with privatising everything under the sun.

What exactly is "Tory" about expecting the government to spend Tax money wisely?

TomPaine

 

[turing test]

They welfare state must end because healthcare is getting too expensive.

Soon the wealthy won’t be able to afford the healthcare they want because the poor may get the healthcare they need.

 

[nino_savatte]

They welfare state must end because healthcare is getting too expensive.

Soon the wealthy won’t be able to afford the healthcare they want because the poor may get the healthcare they need.

The wealthy can already afford the best healthcare on the planet, so nothing will change for them. It's the poor and low-waged who will suffer from any change. Those who call for an end to the welfare state are often those who mistakenly claim that it is "their taxes that pay for freeloaders", while ignoring the many rich bastards who evade tax and squirrel their ill-gotten gains away in offshore bank accounts on Jersey or the Isle of Man.

 

[kyser_soze]

The NHS costing stuff is impossible to state - for all anyone knows, by 2050 many treatments that currently cost loads may well be ultra cheap, especially if genetic/stem cell medicine delivers on it's potential; plus of course if people start looking after themselves (diet, excercise etc) the numbers requiring care, as well as the intensity of care itself, will drop off.

 

[_angel_]

The NHS costing stuff is impossible to state - for all anyone knows, by 2050 many treatments that currently cost loads may well be ultra cheap, especially if genetic/stem cell medicine delivers on it's potential; plus of course if people start looking after themselves (diet, excercise etc) the numbers requiring care, as well as the intensity of care itself, will drop off.

I may have been reading the NHS's own hype here, but apparently it operates pretty cheaply/ efficiently compared to other countries systems.

 

[_angel_]

Soon the wealthy won’t be able to afford the healthcare they want because the poor may get the healthcare they need.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

[kyser_soze]

Oh yeah, very much so - gets WAY more done on a lot less.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Spinning the end of the NHS may be a little harder for them, however, doesn't mean to say it won't happen.

It's sort of already happening. For example, primary care counselling services in the borough of Richmond have been contracted out to the Priory. Yes the service is free, but it seems to be a step towards privitisation.

 

[tbaldwin]

The welfare state was a great idea. Anything that helps people out of poverty and helps to close the huge wealth gap in this country deserves at least some support.
But the welfare state was killed by Thatcher. Nowadays it gives people barely enough to live on and keeps them in poverty rather than helps them out of poverty.
The latest set of welfare reforms are another bad mistake by the govt.
But look at 2 big issues on the news at the moment baby p and shannon mathews what do they say about our welfare state.....Its a horrible mess and lets down the people it should support and protect.

 

[treelover]

So right, so you extrapolate from the behaviour of two sociopaths that a whole welfare system is not fit for purpose and would bring down a whole system that for all its faults still allows millions to survive.

not Charles Murray, are you?

 

[jiggajagga]

The latest set of welfare reforms are another bad mistake by the govt.
But look at 2 big issues on the news at the moment baby p and shannon mathews what do they say about our welfare state.....Its a horrible mess and lets down the people it should support and protect.

So, are you saying that if the welfare state didn't exist there would be fewer sociopaths?

Don't forget, these 20-30 yr old parents now were the children/teenagers of the 1980s under thatcher who told them to 'get on their bikes' and 'there is no such thing as society'. They have now had children and we are where we are.

 

[_angel_]

The welfare state was a great idea. Anything that helps people out of poverty and helps to close the huge wealth gap in this country deserves at least some support.
But the welfare state was killed by Thatcher. Nowadays it gives people barely enough to live on and keeps them in poverty rather than helps them out of poverty.
The latest set of welfare reforms are another bad mistake by the govt.
But look at 2 big issues on the news at the moment baby p and shannon mathews what do they say about our welfare state.....Its a horrible mess and lets down the people it should support and protect.

Mmmmm you are letting two shit heads basically change the entire policy of the welfare state.

There were crap, shitty people before the welfare state and there will be them without it..... probably more, as the lack of money will make people behave in an even worse manner and put their needs above those around them. In this case their kids..


This crap - and others -happened because social services and mental health services are so badly funded..

 

[jiggajagga]

I mean, let face it, if you lost your job and there was no welfare state and your kids had no toys for crimbo what would YOU do? Nothing? or nick something from a shop or nick a tele from some rich twat or sell drugs or what?

An ultra-right wing tory once said " Always remember, the most dangerous man in the world is the man with nothing to lose. If we don't look after the welfare state they will come into our homes and nick our televisions."
Can't stand the mans politics but its true what he says I'm afraid.

It is in the well-to-do's best interests to keep the underclass reasonably happy with a bare living and the 'Soma' of cheap booze.

 

[_angel_]

I mean, let face it, if you lost your job and there was no welfare state and your kids had no toys for crimbo what would YOU do? Nothing? or nick something from a shop or nick a tele from some rich twat or sell drugs or what?

An ultra-right wing tory once said " Always remember, the most dangerous man in the world is the man with nothing to lose. If we don't look after the welfare state they will come into our homes and nick our televisions."
Can't stand the mans politics but its true what he says I'm afraid.

It is in the well-to-do's best interests to keep the underclass reasonably happy with a bare living and the 'Soma' of cheap booze.

A lot of rightwingers seem to have forgotten this. The welfare state isn't existing for the benign niceness of giving, it's to protect the (often) stupid thick bastards moaning "why should I pay for them" against being burgled and robbed as a regular occurence.

 

[subversplat]

That's a very pessimistic view of the welfare state

I like to think that it's because we're not savages that would let someone else starve to death in the road, but you're probably right.

 

[DotCommunist]

well the welfare state was a sop to the w/c after they'd been fed into the mincer War.

stopped us getting too infected with certain russian ideas

 

[jiggajagga]

well the welfare state was a sop to the w/c after they'd been fed into the mincer War.

stopped us getting too infected with certain russian ideas

Absolutely correct. The 'powers that be' were scared of us having our revolution.

I'm still waiting!!

 

[Wolveryeti]

did you know that the current generation of older people in the UK hold more than £900billion in equity on their property? even with crashing house prices, they are the richest generation of their kind ever. my opinion is that some form of equitable inheritance tax must be introduced to pay for those people living longer lives, so that some of this money is redistributed to those who need it.

I think the principle of living in your house until you die is going to have to end, what with the huge burden that is going to be imposed on the new generation of taxpayers. No way are they going to accept hugely increased tax bills to support people who are sitting on that amount of equity without themselves having anywhere affordable to live. That's just a step down the road to servitude.

 

[Gmart]

I truly believe that this trend has been started already by new labour, the Tories and lib dems etc, who have also signed up to this secret agenda regardless of what they say in public or who is in power.

What else could they do? Admit that affording the NHS looks more and more difficult?

I don't buy it any way... They manage to find stacks of money when they really need it elsewhere, so they'll just have to find a way to even up the tax burden without driving the Rich abroad.

I think the principle of living in your house until you die is going to have to end, what with the huge burden that is going to be imposed on the new generation of taxpayers. No way are they going to accept hugely increased tax bills to support people who are sitting on that amount of equity without themselves having anywhere affordable to live. That's just a step down the road to servitude.

We need a tax system which falls less on the poor and the wage-earners and more on the landowners. The amount of unused land in this country is downright criminal. Bring in a tax which is based on square metrage (beyond living needs) and make it impossible for companies or government to own it too.

 

[brasicritique]

Quite right the poor will not go away unless a final solution type iradication took place

well this is the direction things seem to be going in one of todays rightwing shit rolls people on benefits have now been deemed 'subhuman'

 

[Gmart]

The poor will never 'go away' - surely that is obvious?

 

[greenman]

well this is the direction things seem to be going in one of todays rightwing shit rolls people on benefits have now been deemed 'subhuman'

Yes, the hatred and demonisation knows no end. I have a sense of foreboding - a conflagration is brewing, here as in other parts of Europe. "There will be blood"?

 

[treelover]

The thing i have picked up is that they are going to take mowey away from the poor and give it in mortgage holidays to the middle classes, no wonder the liberals are generally keeping quiet about this

 

[SpookyFrank]

The poor will never 'go away' - surely that is obvious?

And the rich surely wouldn't want them to, who will take out their rubbish, make their consumer durables, raise their kids and generally exist to be fed off like a tick feeds off a cow's arse? If there are too many people in the world (there are) then fucking kill off the rich ones first, their the ones that cause all the trouble

 

[Gmart]

And the rich surely wouldn't want them to, who will take out their rubbish, make their consumer durables, raise their kids and generally exist to be fed off like a tick feeds off a cow's arse? If there are too many people in the world (there are) then fucking kill off the rich ones first, their the ones that cause all the trouble

Why get stressed about something which will always be there? Just do what you can but don't let a minority ruin things for you. Lots of good things happen too...

 

[SpookyFrank]

Why et stressed about something which will always be there? Just do what you can but don't let a minority ruin things for you. Lots of good things happen too...

They'll only always be there if we continue to refrain from shooting them all dead in the streets like the vermin they are

 

[Gmart]

They'll only always be there if we continue to refrain from shooting them all dead in the streets like the vermin they are

But even if you did a new rich class would rise up and take their place. Assets would be passed on to other people who would also be rich. Even if you (say) got a written constitution you would still just be ensuring that the inequalities are limited.

 

[tbaldwin]

So right, so you extrapolate from the behaviour of two sociopaths that a whole welfare system is not fit for purpose and would bring down a whole system that for all its faults still allows millions to survive.

not Charles Murray, are you?

Why do you say that? I extrapolate from the 2 cases that they show once again that the people who benefit most from the welfare state are not the poor.
The welfare state consistently lets down the poorest people in society. Look at the baby p case.....Who made over £100,000 a year from their job in social services? Social services departments get billions in funding and consistently let down the people they are supposedly their to help.

Look at the difference between Karen Matthews and the McCanns both relied on the welfare state for their income....Who did best out of it?