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Why 'the Bank', why not just 'Bank'????

scifisam said:
Spain and France both existed as entities before they were ever called Kingdoms or Republics - maybe that explains it. I honestly have no idea about (the)Maghreb, so can't put forward any opinion on that.
There is no need to look at what Spain and France may have been called at various times. They are 'Spain' and 'France', rather than 'the Spain' and 'the France', simply because of the most general rule that names of countries, counties etc do not usually take 'the'. Similarly, it's 'the Principality of Wales', but it's 'Wales' (without 'the').

However, 'They come from the Maghreb' sounds normal to me. 'They come from Maghreb' sounds odd.

I'm not going to get into an argument over this, anyway. Either there is a rule for all these 'exceptions,' or they are exceptions which all happen to follow the same pattern. It turns out the same either way, especially for people learning to speak English.
It's all rule-governed - but as I said, sometimes rules are extremely specific.
 
scifisam said:
Ooh, that could be right. I wonder if the singular would be Gambio?
A second (and I think better) explanation: it's the name of the river around which the country is drawn. The Thames, the Trent, the Gambia...
 
JHE said:
A second (and I think better) explanation: it's the name of the river around which the country is drawn. The Thames, the Trent, the Gambia...

I was just writing that too. :) But I do like the idea of a person from the Gambia being called a Gambio.

The Maghreb could be because of its derivation, presuming Wiki is right:

The word maghreb is an Arabic term literally meaning "place of setting (of the sun)", and hence "West". It derives from the root ghuroob, meaning "to set" or "to be hidden" (however, it is not used to refer to the setting of the moon). It is also used in a manner similar to the metaphorical use "to be eclipsed", which is used in English.

We say 'the West' when referring to a place (rather than a direction), so if Maghreb means West, we'd add the definite article.
 
The Maghreb: Wiki tells me it comes from Arabic for 'the West'. The article might be kept in English either (i) because someone wanted to stay loyal to the Arabic norm, keeping the article, or, more likely, (ii) because some people (not me, until just now) are aware of the Arabic meaning and in English we say 'the East', 'the West' etc.

ETA: You beat me to it.
 
[Edit: You did beat me to it with your edit, damn it!)

Bank should still stay as Bank, without 'the,' because with the article it really does sound as though the train is going to draw up at a cashpoint, like a taxi when you haven't got enough money for the fare.
 
According to The Lonely Planet: "It's been suggested that the Gambia River's name stems from the Portuguese word cambio, meaning 'exchange,' or, in this context, 'trade'"

Wikipedia notes "The Mandinka language does not have a /g/ phoneme, so the river is therefore pronounced "Kambiya" rather than "Gambia".
 
Apparently, "the Gambia" used to be just "Gambia" - they added the "the" because they were sick of getting confused with Zambia and various other African states. The "the" makes it distinctive.
 
phildwyer said:
The prisons were *for* the children. Therefore they were the prisons *of* the children. The children did not have to be the legal owners of the the prison in order for it to have been *their* prison. Therefore "childrens' prison" should take the possessive apostrophe. As should "Barons' Court." Except in that case the is even less doubt, because obviously the court *did* legally belong to the barons. You think a bunch of barons would need to go to someone else's court to hang out? Even if it was someone else's to begin with, the barons would immediately have nicked it.

ahem. 'children' is already the plural of 'child' and there is no such word as 'childs', hence the possesive plural is 'children's' NOT 'childrens''!

:rolleyes:

e2a:in light of earlier posts, sorry to labour the point.
 
slowjoe said:
what about 'the' before countless names of roads?

Do you mean like 'The King's Road'? That's because it's a possessive. I can't think of any other road names with 'the,' off the top of my head.
 
scifisam said:
Do you mean like 'The King's Road'? That's because it's a possessive. I can't think of any other road names with 'the,' off the top of my head.

The Roman Road? The Caledonian Road? The Old Kent Road?
 
I've never heard Roman Rd or Caledonian Rd used with an article, and only heard the Old Kent Rd used that way in a song. They're road names I hear a fair amount too. I live near Roman Rd and grew up not far from here, and it's always been Roman Rd without any article.

Maybe it's either a extremely localised regional dialect, or an idiosynrasy. *shrugs* It's not Standard English, or the English of all the London dialects I know of.

One of the things I dislike about grammar is the way so many people don't want to admit that any grammatical patterns actually exist. Give an example of one pattern, and someone will come up with ten exceptions as examples of how the pattern doesn't count, as if the millions of examples where the pattern does work are somehow cancelled out.

It's true, a grammar rule (descriptive, not prescriptive), is only useful if it's describing something that happens in the real world; in the real world, the vast majority of place names follow the patterns I outlined earlier, ergo, it is a useful rule/guideline/pattern to follow.

'Human beings have two kidneys.'

'Yeah, but I know someone who has only one kidney!'

'OK then, you're right, obviously it's not at all true that human beings have kidneys, it must all be coincidence.'

'The Beatles were musicians.'

'No they weren't! They made a film too.'

'OK then, they weren't actually musicians at all, it's just a coincidence that they played music a lot.'

Really. No-one would deny that, say, German has guidelines for when to use the article and when not; why deny that it happens in English too?
 
the Old Kent Road, the Walworth Road, the Strand, the Charing Cross Road, the Euston Road, the Pentonville Road, etc, etc, ad nausium. These are all very well established london-wide terms which I do not accept any born and bred londoner could be ignorant of.

Also, arsenal FC's 'the arsenal' seems to me just as likely to derive simply from 'the arsenal football club', rather than having anything to do with the actual military arsenal. I say this because there are many sports clubs prefixed with the definate article; for example I was once a member of addiscombe cycling club, aka 'the addiscombe'.
 
slowjoe said:
the Old Kent Road, the Walworth Road, the Strand, the Charing Cross Road, the Euston Road, the Pentonville Road, etc, etc, ad nausium. These are all very well established london-wide terms which I do not accept any born and bred londoner could be ignorant of.
Have to say, out of that lot I've only heard 'the Strand' be used. In fact, 'the Charing Cross Road' sounds particularly odd.

I can see how some place names have 'the' added to them as matter of historical convention - such as in the case of 'the Strand'. But I've yet to meet anyone who calls Bank, 'the Bank', apart from tube announcers.

And if people do say 'the Charing Cross Road', why don't the tube bods say 'this train terminates at Morden via the Charing Cross'? Or even 'the Morden via the Charing Cross'? :confused:
 
EastEnder said:
And if people do say 'the Charing Cross Road', why don't the tube bods say 'this train terminates at Morden via the Charing Cross'? Or even 'the Morden via the Charing Cross'? :confused:

Because the Cross itself is long forgotten (in which case it might take an article) and "Charing Cross" is taken to refer to the railway station building itself.

Surely you must have heard people refer to "the Walworth Road"? Roads that refer to the destination in particular often seem to take an article, presumably because "the Walworth Road" is "the(correct use!) road to (/through) Walworth" and it is being used in this descriptive sense rather than just as a name, like Acacia Aevnue or whatever.
 
Monkeynuts said:
Surely you must have heard people refer to "the Walworth Road"? Roads that refer to the destination in particular often seem to take an article, presumably because "the Walworth Road" is "the(correct use!) road to (/through) Walworth" and it is being used in this descriptive sense rather than just as a name, like Acacia Aevnue or whatever.
All of that makes sense, it's the lack of consistency that's odd.

Shed loads of roads in London, and everywhere else for that matter, are named after where they lead, or are on the way to. What about Kennington Road, Camberwell Road or Stockwell Road?
 
EastEnder said:
All of that makes sense, it's the lack of consistency that's odd.

Shed loads of roads in London, and everywhere else for that matter, are named after where they lead, or are on the way to. What about Kennington Road, Camberwell Road or Stockwell Road?

I would wager that people for whom these roads are significant use the article too.

your not from round ere, aare you? :p
 
EastEnder said:
I live on Stockwell Road.

Note: Stockwell Road, not "the" Stockwell Road.

:p

I've found plenty of people who live round here but still just say 'walworth road' or 'old kent road'; I pressume they are not yet fully naturalised :p

did you grow up in that area?
 
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