It isn't very clever to put your own defence entirely at the whims of a foreign country unless you really have no alternative. Almost every country in the world, as soon as they have the resources, sets up their own military forces that are directly under their own control, makes their own judgement about the potential risks they face and what they might need to deal with them.they've already got the entire US armed forces at their disposal if a serious need ever arises.
Why so many threads about Israel?
- Thread starter stereotypical
- Start date
Military levels in any country tend to be based on what the risks are perceived to be rather than on what they would be if things were different.
From a list of 161 countries:
Active troops per thousand citizens
#3 Switzerland 29.9/1000
#4 Israel 23.90/1000
...
#7 Lebanon 18.80/1000
...
#9 Jordan 17.40/1000
#10 Syria 16.89/1000
As you can see the situation is very similar in three neighbouring countries, which have combined forces around three times the size of Israel's. You might argue that Israel would need less if they made friends with everyone, but I can't see how you can argue that their current provisions are too big: if anything they are still far outnumbered and have to rely on maintaining a technological/qualitative edge and maintaining political links with countries who could help them if necessary.
Look at the numbers for other countries - I don't think Israel are that atypical in terms of numbers of troops and hardware given the situation they are in and the recent history in the region - you have similar military build-ups and troop numbers in several parts of the world where there have been conflicts in the last 50-odd years, especially where countries actually have the money to spend on them.
It's actually one active soldier for every 42 people:
From a list of 161 countries:
Active troops per thousand citizens
#3 Switzerland 29.9/1000
#4 Israel 23.90/1000
...
#7 Lebanon 18.80/1000
...
#9 Jordan 17.40/1000
#10 Syria 16.89/1000
As you can see the situation is very similar in three neighbouring countries, which have combined forces around three times the size of Israel's. You might argue that Israel would need less if they made friends with everyone, but I can't see how you can argue that their current provisions are too big: if anything they are still far outnumbered and have to rely on maintaining a technological/qualitative edge and maintaining political links with countries who could help them if necessary.
Look at the numbers for other countries - I don't think Israel are that atypical in terms of numbers of troops and hardware given the situation they are in and the recent history in the region - you have similar military build-ups and troop numbers in several parts of the world where there have been conflicts in the last 50-odd years, especially where countries actually have the money to spend on them.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Lebanon and Syria both deploy significant numbers of troops in their Palestinian refugee camps. The camps there are controlled by the respective militaries, have checkpoints to control movement in and out, arbitrary ID checks, random violence against the inhabitants - the same sort of nonsense that Israel pulls in the West Bank. It's not a great justification for having a big army. IMO, obv.
Those numbers look a bit odd too. Israel conscripts women (2-3 years) as well as men (for a full 3 years, plus 24 years of reserve service). Syria conscripts only men, for 2.5 years. Lebanon phased out conscription altogether in 2007, but it was only ever for a year and only for men. Jordan suspended conscription indefinitely in 1992 but have just reintroduced a 3 month version, only for men, apparently as some form of youth training programme. Switzerland, the other heavily soldiered country in that snippet, conscripts all men for 12 years to achieve that spectacularly high level per capita.
Given the differences in the amount of conscription going on, Syria and especially Lebanon and Jordan would have to have an enormous proportion of long-serving volunteers to reach a similar per capita number of active soldiers at any one time. Maybe they do, I don't know. But the numbers look a bit strange.
Those numbers look a bit odd too. Israel conscripts women (2-3 years) as well as men (for a full 3 years, plus 24 years of reserve service). Syria conscripts only men, for 2.5 years. Lebanon phased out conscription altogether in 2007, but it was only ever for a year and only for men. Jordan suspended conscription indefinitely in 1992 but have just reintroduced a 3 month version, only for men, apparently as some form of youth training programme. Switzerland, the other heavily soldiered country in that snippet, conscripts all men for 12 years to achieve that spectacularly high level per capita.
Given the differences in the amount of conscription going on, Syria and especially Lebanon and Jordan would have to have an enormous proportion of long-serving volunteers to reach a similar per capita number of active soldiers at any one time. Maybe they do, I don't know. But the numbers look a bit strange.
Well here are the wikipedia numbers for Israel with the sources listed. I don't know if they add up exactly.
Active Service Personnel 177,000 >> "Israeli Defense Forces, CSIS (Page 12)" (2006-07-25) http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/050323_memilbaldefine[1].pdf (although the number I can see on page 12 is 168,000)
Reserve Force 408,000 >> "The Europa World Year Book, 2005, Volume 1", London & New York: Routledge, 2005, p 2301.ISBN 1-85743-306-8
Paramilitary 8,050 >> "Israeli Paramilitary" (2006-07-25). http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Asia-and-Oceania/Israel-ARMED-FORCES.html
Total 584,050
population: 7,337,000 30/09/08 Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics (nb. UN figure for mid-2007 is 6,967,000, which excludes Israeli population living in the West Bank) ... having checked the link the most recent figure is 7,326,900)
Active troops per thousand citizens: 23.90
...using the figures of 168,000 and 7,326,900 gives 22.9
...using the figures of 177,000 and 7,326,900 gives 24.2
Have you got your own suggestion about the correct figure?
Here's even more numbers...
Active Service Personnel 177,000 >> "Israeli Defense Forces, CSIS (Page 12)" (2006-07-25) http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/050323_memilbaldefine[1].pdf (although the number I can see on page 12 is 168,000)
Reserve Force 408,000 >> "The Europa World Year Book, 2005, Volume 1", London & New York: Routledge, 2005, p 2301.ISBN 1-85743-306-8
Paramilitary 8,050 >> "Israeli Paramilitary" (2006-07-25). http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Asia-and-Oceania/Israel-ARMED-FORCES.html
Total 584,050
population: 7,337,000 30/09/08 Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics (nb. UN figure for mid-2007 is 6,967,000, which excludes Israeli population living in the West Bank) ... having checked the link the most recent figure is 7,326,900)
Active troops per thousand citizens: 23.90
...using the figures of 168,000 and 7,326,900 gives 22.9
...using the figures of 177,000 and 7,326,900 gives 24.2
Have you got your own suggestion about the correct figure?
Here's even more numbers...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/army.htm
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Firstly, I didn't question the figure for Israel - I pointed out that it appeared inconsistent with other figures, given the known patterns of conscription. Giving me more numbers for Israel doesn't really help resolve the problem.
Secondly, your source states that Israel doesn't disclose the information and only offers only one fairly recent third-party estimate (from 2004), so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with it except that we don't know how big the IDF is.
Thirdly, I'm bored of this now and you've resorted to posting up meaningless numbers for no apparent reason. I've no idea what point you're trying to make, but I'm sure someone else gets it. I wouldn't bother wasting any more time trying to get it through my thick skull - I'm very slow.
Secondly, your source states that Israel doesn't disclose the information and only offers only one fairly recent third-party estimate (from 2004), so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with it except that we don't know how big the IDF is.
Thirdly, I'm bored of this now and you've resorted to posting up meaningless numbers for no apparent reason. I've no idea what point you're trying to make, but I'm sure someone else gets it. I wouldn't bother wasting any more time trying to get it through my thick skull - I'm very slow.
and the zionists are continuing to promote this!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's certainly the case in Egypt and Syria that military forces are necessary to maintain the political status quo in those states.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
they've already got the entire US armed forces at their disposal if a serious need ever arises.
The US would never deploy there in strength, and the US is also well aware that their current modus vivendi with Egypt would be at risk if they did, with all the attendant consequences that would have for destabilising the entire region.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
That's true, but irrelevant.
It's irrelevant to my original point (that the might of the Israeli military, combined with it's geographical position, is the reason behind US support) and it's irrelevant to my subsequent point (that the majority of the military are used to maintain the Occupation, not to secure the borders and deal with external threats).
If you're trying to justify the size of the Israeli military on the basis of current external threats, well *shrug*, I'm not interested enough to argue the toss. If you're trying to justify the use of that military capacity to maintain the Occupation, just say so and we can have an honest debate about it.
If "...the might of the Israeli military, combined with it's geographical position, is the reason behind US support..." then does the US 'support' Egypt for the same reasons (ie location and military size?) and why does it not support Syria?
I have an open mind about what you are saying, I'm not here to take sides or score points, nor do I have some kind of hidden agenda. I hardly ever read this forum and came across this tread randomly. I'm sorry that you think I am not interested in "honest" debate. I am paying attention to what you are saying and I am open to being persuaded by arguments and evidence you put forward. Hopefully this is 'honest' enough for you.
But you are arguing the toss. I'm interested in hearing why you in your estimation Israel has too big a military in terms of defence against neighbours, given that those neighbours seem to have very large military forces themselves. Even if Israel is only trying to match Syria alone and noone else, then they have a rough parity in terms of numbers (and probably a higher quality of forces). Obviously given their smaller population this therefore needs a higher per capita participation but this doesn't mean it is 'disproportionate' if this is what is seen as being required as being capable of defence.
I have an open mind about what you are saying, I'm not here to take sides or score points, nor do I have some kind of hidden agenda. I hardly ever read this forum and came across this tread randomly. I'm sorry that you think I am not interested in "honest" debate. I am paying attention to what you are saying and I am open to being persuaded by arguments and evidence you put forward. Hopefully this is 'honest' enough for you.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
If they could buy off Syria, I'm sure they'd be happy to do so. But they allied with Israel, who are occupying part of Syria, so it's a bit tricky. Clinton did try to get a bill through for funds to Syria but Congress scuppered it. He was trying to pave the way for peace once Israel had made good on it's promise to return the Golan Heights, which of course, they never did.
And yes, they do support Egypt for the same reasons.
It's not always been about Israel and the US in the region - apart from Truman's role in bribing the UN to admit Israel, the uber-close relationship between Israel and the US is a post-1967 thing. If you're interested, Chomsky's The Fateful Triangle gives a good run down of the geo-political shenanigans, as do parts of Avi Shlaim's Iron Wall. The Lavon Affair is an interesting illustration of how international relations were shaped in the region.
I wasn't arguing the toss - I just noted an inconsistency in the numbers, in that they didn't seem to fit with Israel's much greater use of conscription.
The only substantive point I made in that post was that Syria and Lebanon use the troops at their disposal to maintain military control over the Palestinian refugee camps in much the same way that Israel does, so comparing the size of their armies doesn't really help decide how many are needed for defence and how many are needed to harrass Palestinians out of existence.
I'm happy to believe you. The points you made were a bit weird and didn't seem to engage at all with what I was saying, that's all. I don't know you, so I don't know what your motivation is - there are other posters who would be very obviously dissembling with those posts, but I didn't offer that as the only interpretation of what you had written.
I'm just not personally interested in how large a defence force needs to be - I'm interested in how they are misused for non-defensive operations. If you don't want to discuss the latter and I don't want to discuss the former, there's not a lot of point, is there?
Laptop: "Laptop is considering iniating a thread suggesting that Zionism was an anti-Jewish plot constructed so to have Jews so such unpalatable things as to have more people hate them.": You must have ALOT Of time on your hands, unless you meant in a sarcastic manner. To each their own.
Funny thing though, you do not seem to have much of a problem with any other form of Nationalism. I mean, what were those darn Jews thinking? Believing they actually had a chance at determining their own futures. They would have been so much better off living in places like England and America..or Iran and Syria, right?
Then, to imagine that they might construct their monstrosity of a nation on land literally composed of the bones of their ancestors, in places resoinding with Jewish history and connection! What was going through their heads. Everyone knows that a Venetian ghetto or Polish village was far superior to a land actually ruled by Jews!
Then, the nerve of those Jews giving more than 75% of their ancestral lands to Arabs when they should be giving 100% of it! In addition to the 30 other Arab Nations in existence! I mean, so what if Arabs have more than 600 times the amount of land?!? What gives those aggressive and uppity Jews the damned idea that they could ever join the world as an independant and self sufficient nation? ESPECIALLY when their homeland constituted one of the world's first nations.
Yeah, Laptop, you make ALOT Of sense...
Funny thing though, you do not seem to have much of a problem with any other form of Nationalism. I mean, what were those darn Jews thinking? Believing they actually had a chance at determining their own futures. They would have been so much better off living in places like England and America..or Iran and Syria, right?
Then, to imagine that they might construct their monstrosity of a nation on land literally composed of the bones of their ancestors, in places resoinding with Jewish history and connection! What was going through their heads. Everyone knows that a Venetian ghetto or Polish village was far superior to a land actually ruled by Jews!
Then, the nerve of those Jews giving more than 75% of their ancestral lands to Arabs when they should be giving 100% of it! In addition to the 30 other Arab Nations in existence! I mean, so what if Arabs have more than 600 times the amount of land?!? What gives those aggressive and uppity Jews the damned idea that they could ever join the world as an independant and self sufficient nation? ESPECIALLY when their homeland constituted one of the world's first nations.
Yeah, Laptop, you make ALOT Of sense...
YMU: ""A lasting peace with Egypt.": Yes, a peace where the Egyptian President will not even step foot in Israel, nor will any Egyptians aside from the isolated big businessmen who do so without getting their passports stamped. Or maybe you are talking about Jordan which does not even allow Jewish skullcaps to be worn in their country, because it is considered "disruptive." With a peace like that who needs an army? Right?
I guess living in England you can imagine things the way you wish.
"Peace with Egypt was easy, all Israel had to do was hand back land it had taken without Settlers.": Riiiight. That and 4 Wars but who is counting, right? Then we can also forget Egypt's state controlled media which to this day still publishes the "Protocols" as well as presenting it as the highest rated miniseries year after year. Oh, and before I forget, also categorically refusing to police Sinai outside of murdering the odd Sudanese black who is trying to hightail it out of Egypt and into Israel.
"The PLO recognised Israel's 'Right to Exist' before Israel even thought about recognising the 'Palestinian's' right to statehood.": You are a century too late. Israel has recognised this since 1919 and even did so during its most RIght Wing days under then PM Begin!
The PLO DID recognise Israel's Existence, but also maintained that it was winning back "Palestine" in increments and to this day has never veered from that straight and narrow path. Did such recognition make one iota of difference in the "Ramallah Lynching?" Did it make one iota of difference when the PA Infantry, armed by Israel and trained by America, deployed in 3 of the largest "WB" Districts has to this day refused to apprehand one, single terrorist?
Big Shi$, they recognise us. So what? I would rather they stop trying to kill us and pretend we never existed and I dare say almost all Israelis would agree on that. Their recognition means nothing.
"HAMAS, for all its bluster has said that 'Israel is not going anywhere' and 'ending the occupation is enough'.": BULLSHI$. HAMAS has never said any such thing. It has said that it will accept a HUDNA for Israel's Withdrawal from ALL of Gaza, so called "WB," and E. Jerusalem PLUS the "PAlestinian Right f Return." They EVEN said the HUDNA might last as long as 10 years. BIG SHI%. Thanks but no thanks. Funny, you do not seem to worked up over the Charter which calls for the extermination not of Israelis BUT EVERY JEW ON THE PLANET.
I guess living in England you can imagine things the way you wish.
"Peace with Egypt was easy, all Israel had to do was hand back land it had taken without Settlers.": Riiiight. That and 4 Wars but who is counting, right? Then we can also forget Egypt's state controlled media which to this day still publishes the "Protocols" as well as presenting it as the highest rated miniseries year after year. Oh, and before I forget, also categorically refusing to police Sinai outside of murdering the odd Sudanese black who is trying to hightail it out of Egypt and into Israel.
"The PLO recognised Israel's 'Right to Exist' before Israel even thought about recognising the 'Palestinian's' right to statehood.": You are a century too late. Israel has recognised this since 1919 and even did so during its most RIght Wing days under then PM Begin!
The PLO DID recognise Israel's Existence, but also maintained that it was winning back "Palestine" in increments and to this day has never veered from that straight and narrow path. Did such recognition make one iota of difference in the "Ramallah Lynching?" Did it make one iota of difference when the PA Infantry, armed by Israel and trained by America, deployed in 3 of the largest "WB" Districts has to this day refused to apprehand one, single terrorist?
Big Shi$, they recognise us. So what? I would rather they stop trying to kill us and pretend we never existed and I dare say almost all Israelis would agree on that. Their recognition means nothing.
"HAMAS, for all its bluster has said that 'Israel is not going anywhere' and 'ending the occupation is enough'.": BULLSHI$. HAMAS has never said any such thing. It has said that it will accept a HUDNA for Israel's Withdrawal from ALL of Gaza, so called "WB," and E. Jerusalem PLUS the "PAlestinian Right f Return." They EVEN said the HUDNA might last as long as 10 years. BIG SHI%. Thanks but no thanks. Funny, you do not seem to worked up over the Charter which calls for the extermination not of Israelis BUT EVERY JEW ON THE PLANET.
YMU Part II: " Since Israel has been so close to the US for 20 years it does not have to maintain its universal conscription as it has unless it has domestic issues...": Such utter nonsense. No offence but you have absolutely no udnerstanding whatsoever about the geopolitics affecting Israel OR Israel itself. The 7 nations that exist in a legal state of declared war with Israel have no bearing on that? What about Lebanon? Hezbollah? Ring a bell?
"Domestic issues?" OH, you must be talking about the 28 "Palestinian" groups, ALL of which are fully committed to Israel's utter destruction and 27 of which are committed to the EXTERMINATION OF EVERY JEW ON EARTH. Yeah, "domestic issues," sure.
I mean, it has been all of 27 months since we were last invaded by a foreign force.
"Maybe all those troops are on standby in case Egypt invades?": Yeah, cause the 4 wars Egypt foisted on us were just nothing to even blink an eye about.
Detroit: "Israel has the entire US Forces at its disposal if the need arises.": You ought to check the Agreements a bit better. Indeed, Israel and the US are allies but not friends. Take the US Intel deployment taking place right now and raising quite alot of debate (again) about Israel's relationship with its lecherous Uncle Sam.
When the US pulls out of Iraq in 2011, if not sooner, the US and Israel's alliance will begin to cool and will again move in the direction it had began moving in prior to the current US debacle in the Mid-East. If anyone imagines that the US would commit any kind of real military force to Israel , aside from Iran which would be an ulterior motive at work, they have no clue.
"Israel consripts women for 2 to 3 years.": It only conscripts very few, and then only for 18 months with limited exceptions (those VOLUNTEERING for combat courses which they will then function as instructors, or like my daughter in the one coed Infantry Battalion, serve at sensitive Checkpoints and Installations where females are required). Even with the 18 months they can short out at 12 months quite easily.
"Israel conscripts men for 3 years and then 24 years of Reserves.": The men serving in the Navy serve 4 years. Men do serve 3 years, but not every man, only Jews, Druse, and Circassians (although Bedua volunteer at an extrodinarily high rate). Religious Jews are expempted although some do volunteer.
Reserves last until age 56 in many cases although after the 2006 War they changed certain regulations that now allow for comabt veterans to retire at age 46, or sooner if they , like me, served past the mandatory 3 years and accumulated alot of comabt time. So, going by the average induction age of 18, a male can serve from 22 to 38 years Reserve time. I served less than 20 since I had 8 years Active, etc., etc.
With our declared enemies holding more than 600 times the amount of land we do, and us having a state that can be driven across in less than a hour at soem points, it is vital that we maintain a very large military. This is not a choice, it is a neccessity. We would much rather be starting university at age 18 like the rest of the world, instead of 22 which is our average.
Your whole line of reasoning depends on Israel being expansionist and it is not. Were it at all the case we would not have surrendered Sinai, and later Gaza (not to mention 5 "WB" Districts). We are in the so called "WB" because we are bound to be there under International Law. There has never been an Arab Nation there and the PA is in no position to declare statehood. Look how grand Gaza has turned out.
Of course, were the PA to make peace, formally, they could begin moving in that direction, but as ALWAYS, the choice is entirely theirs.
Float: I will not get into the whole "Wiki is not a great source" thing but only say that that particular snippet is a bit misleading. Our military pool, combining all amred forced, is more than 1.5 million. However, at any given time we do have less than 200,000 in Active Service, and less than half a million in Alert Readiness. the 1.5 million includes ages 16 to 60. We are not party to the Child Soldier Convention and can , if it got down to it, utilise our 14 year olds but that has not happened since our first war in 1948.
YMU (Again):"Israel never made good on its promise to return the Golan to Syria.": You mean the Syria that remains in a state of declared war with Israel? Or the Syria that refuses to eve acknolwedge Israel's existence? Or the Syria that claims Israel infriges on Lebanon's territorial integrity while still refusing to admit Lebanon EVEN exists? Or is it the Lebanon that hosts no less than 22 of the "Palestinian" terroirst organisations that are firmly committed to destroying EVERY JEW ON THE PLANET?
"Truman bribed the UN to admit the UN.": I suggest you stay away from fringe sources and stick to actual history. Truman hated Israel and only voted yes because he himself was afraid of the Soviet Orbit AND was pressured in a couple of under handed ways. The UN did not need to be bought, it was the one who created the Partition and Israel in that manner was grandfathered in via the League of Nations. The Philippines happens to be the nation who actually voted Israel into existence (funny that I am about 1 of 300 Jews in the entire Philippines including dimplomatic personel given the shared history).
Truman refused to meet with a single Israeli even after the UN vote, until his Jewish partner in his habedashery business pressured him into it.
You are right about 1967 though, that is true. As for the Lavon Affair, your own nation happens to be the instigating nation at the root of it so perhaps you might look a tad bit closer to home when talking about regional dynamics and what caused what.
"Syria and Lebanon use their militaries to control the "Palestinian" Camps in their nations, just as Israel with the so called 'WB'.":One would have imagined that you might have actually researched the number of "Palestinians" in each of the 2 nations, let alone Camps and the "Palestinian" dynamic in those nations. There are no fences in either nation, and aside from a single camp in Lebanon neither nation uses the military heavily around them. Currently the Lebanese and Syrian Armies have been building up in Beka'a, on their shared border, in an interesting and under reported story.
Lebanon deploys the vast bulk of its armed force in the Sub-Litani Region, as per UN 1701 in conjunction with UNIFIL, the impotent UN joke. Syria is one of the most militarised nations in all of Asia.
"Domestic issues?" OH, you must be talking about the 28 "Palestinian" groups, ALL of which are fully committed to Israel's utter destruction and 27 of which are committed to the EXTERMINATION OF EVERY JEW ON EARTH. Yeah, "domestic issues," sure.
I mean, it has been all of 27 months since we were last invaded by a foreign force.
"Maybe all those troops are on standby in case Egypt invades?": Yeah, cause the 4 wars Egypt foisted on us were just nothing to even blink an eye about.
Detroit: "Israel has the entire US Forces at its disposal if the need arises.": You ought to check the Agreements a bit better. Indeed, Israel and the US are allies but not friends. Take the US Intel deployment taking place right now and raising quite alot of debate (again) about Israel's relationship with its lecherous Uncle Sam.
When the US pulls out of Iraq in 2011, if not sooner, the US and Israel's alliance will begin to cool and will again move in the direction it had began moving in prior to the current US debacle in the Mid-East. If anyone imagines that the US would commit any kind of real military force to Israel , aside from Iran which would be an ulterior motive at work, they have no clue.
"Israel consripts women for 2 to 3 years.": It only conscripts very few, and then only for 18 months with limited exceptions (those VOLUNTEERING for combat courses which they will then function as instructors, or like my daughter in the one coed Infantry Battalion, serve at sensitive Checkpoints and Installations where females are required). Even with the 18 months they can short out at 12 months quite easily.
"Israel conscripts men for 3 years and then 24 years of Reserves.": The men serving in the Navy serve 4 years. Men do serve 3 years, but not every man, only Jews, Druse, and Circassians (although Bedua volunteer at an extrodinarily high rate). Religious Jews are expempted although some do volunteer.
Reserves last until age 56 in many cases although after the 2006 War they changed certain regulations that now allow for comabt veterans to retire at age 46, or sooner if they , like me, served past the mandatory 3 years and accumulated alot of comabt time. So, going by the average induction age of 18, a male can serve from 22 to 38 years Reserve time. I served less than 20 since I had 8 years Active, etc., etc.
With our declared enemies holding more than 600 times the amount of land we do, and us having a state that can be driven across in less than a hour at soem points, it is vital that we maintain a very large military. This is not a choice, it is a neccessity. We would much rather be starting university at age 18 like the rest of the world, instead of 22 which is our average.
Your whole line of reasoning depends on Israel being expansionist and it is not. Were it at all the case we would not have surrendered Sinai, and later Gaza (not to mention 5 "WB" Districts). We are in the so called "WB" because we are bound to be there under International Law. There has never been an Arab Nation there and the PA is in no position to declare statehood. Look how grand Gaza has turned out.
Of course, were the PA to make peace, formally, they could begin moving in that direction, but as ALWAYS, the choice is entirely theirs.
Float: I will not get into the whole "Wiki is not a great source" thing but only say that that particular snippet is a bit misleading. Our military pool, combining all amred forced, is more than 1.5 million. However, at any given time we do have less than 200,000 in Active Service, and less than half a million in Alert Readiness. the 1.5 million includes ages 16 to 60. We are not party to the Child Soldier Convention and can , if it got down to it, utilise our 14 year olds but that has not happened since our first war in 1948.
YMU (Again):"Israel never made good on its promise to return the Golan to Syria.": You mean the Syria that remains in a state of declared war with Israel? Or the Syria that refuses to eve acknolwedge Israel's existence? Or the Syria that claims Israel infriges on Lebanon's territorial integrity while still refusing to admit Lebanon EVEN exists? Or is it the Lebanon that hosts no less than 22 of the "Palestinian" terroirst organisations that are firmly committed to destroying EVERY JEW ON THE PLANET?
"Truman bribed the UN to admit the UN.": I suggest you stay away from fringe sources and stick to actual history. Truman hated Israel and only voted yes because he himself was afraid of the Soviet Orbit AND was pressured in a couple of under handed ways. The UN did not need to be bought, it was the one who created the Partition and Israel in that manner was grandfathered in via the League of Nations. The Philippines happens to be the nation who actually voted Israel into existence (funny that I am about 1 of 300 Jews in the entire Philippines including dimplomatic personel given the shared history).
Truman refused to meet with a single Israeli even after the UN vote, until his Jewish partner in his habedashery business pressured him into it.
You are right about 1967 though, that is true. As for the Lavon Affair, your own nation happens to be the instigating nation at the root of it so perhaps you might look a tad bit closer to home when talking about regional dynamics and what caused what.
"Syria and Lebanon use their militaries to control the "Palestinian" Camps in their nations, just as Israel with the so called 'WB'.":One would have imagined that you might have actually researched the number of "Palestinians" in each of the 2 nations, let alone Camps and the "Palestinian" dynamic in those nations. There are no fences in either nation, and aside from a single camp in Lebanon neither nation uses the military heavily around them. Currently the Lebanese and Syrian Armies have been building up in Beka'a, on their shared border, in an interesting and under reported story.
Lebanon deploys the vast bulk of its armed force in the Sub-Litani Region, as per UN 1701 in conjunction with UNIFIL, the impotent UN joke. Syria is one of the most militarised nations in all of Asia.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
Out of curiosity, I have just done a word count of Rach's first salvo of rants earlier today since his abscence.
In roughly 2.5 hours, he has managed to post 4,858 words over several threads.
4,858.
I don't know what is saddest: that he returns without a mention of his multi-posting rumbling, subsequent ban and humiliation as if nothing had happened; that he feels necessary to revive month-old discussions that have been long forgotten by everyone; or that his obsession is such that he- clearly- sits down and carefully prepares replies to posts on an internet message board for hours in advance. I won't even go into the substance of his claims.
You need help. You really do.
In roughly 2.5 hours, he has managed to post 4,858 words over several threads.
4,858.
I don't know what is saddest: that he returns without a mention of his multi-posting rumbling, subsequent ban and humiliation as if nothing had happened; that he feels necessary to revive month-old discussions that have been long forgotten by everyone; or that his obsession is such that he- clearly- sits down and carefully prepares replies to posts on an internet message board for hours in advance. I won't even go into the substance of his claims.
You need help. You really do.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
Remember if the British Army loses worst that happens here is the government falls .
If things go really badly for the IDF they believe their country falls and you wonder why they have a huge military.
If things go really badly for the IDF they believe their country falls and you wonder why they have a huge military.
TP: In fact I was cognizant of a 48 hour ban bbut have no idea why it was instituted. the notice said "Double posting" I believe and have no idea what it means. I really do not care. Why you would imagine I would though is the sad thing. Again, it is not the "Rachamim Forum." As always I seek to discuss issues and you (and others) seek to involve nonsense into the mix. Perhaps you can cherish what you see as my "embarassment (as if)" and move onto real things.
I will reply to another personality thing though. You imagine I compose my posts before hand? What utter nonsense. True that I am retired but I do run a few businesses and have a family. I could not spend more than the 2 odd hours I spend. I just happen to be able to type fast (as one witnesses with my typos) and am well committed to my views.
Is your life really that sad that you need to ignore actual issues and try to antagonise me? Talk about "embarrassing." As far as needing help, in fact I do. Know anything about bagging rice? I will pay you 3 US a day plus food at 50% of your pay like the rest of my Labourers.
Now, can you deal with actual issues?
I will reply to another personality thing though. You imagine I compose my posts before hand? What utter nonsense. True that I am retired but I do run a few businesses and have a family. I could not spend more than the 2 odd hours I spend. I just happen to be able to type fast (as one witnesses with my typos) and am well committed to my views.
Is your life really that sad that you need to ignore actual issues and try to antagonise me? Talk about "embarrassing." As far as needing help, in fact I do. Know anything about bagging rice? I will pay you 3 US a day plus food at 50% of your pay like the rest of my Labourers.
Now, can you deal with actual issues?
T & P
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The first sentence is all one needs to know Rach...
Do you deny then that you posted something in support of one of your own posts under a different username, pretending to be somebody else?
Not only do I fully deny it but have filed a complaint with Editor asking that the ISP be traced and the person who did it perm. banned since it is apparently a current poster (other than I) who wanted to play games. Gee TP, you would not know anyone like that would you? I hope not, I enjoy seeing your posts and would hate to see you go.
As such, I will no longer discuss the issue unless something new comes up, which I doubt other than the Administaor running the ISP check.
As such, I will no longer discuss the issue unless something new comes up, which I doubt other than the Administaor running the ISP check.
T & P
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You're so full of crap you must have a cloud of flies following you around.
And now you are accusing me of creating the Clint persona in an attempt to ave you banned? LOL! Dream on kid. You're not that important. You can go and stick such accusations up your shiny arse. And for the record, I did not report the double posting either, as you appear to believe. Get off your high horse already. And have the fucking decency to admit you were caught multi-posting.
Actually, I did think it was you but today, in another thread here, it was pointed out that each and every post of "Clint" was simply a verbatim repat of a previous post in the same thread. The one you evidently "Reported" me for was the only one of mine he/she copied. So, unless you a a true mental case i do not now think you did it but either way at the very least you should have looked into it before accusing me and causing me to be banned.
Had you even bothered to read the person's 17 odd threads you would have seem him/her repeating a host of posters. More than that, the post you whined about? It was a verbatim copy of my own post in the same thread! You did not even bother to look! You simply noticed my phrasing and instead of investigating you ran clicking your heels thinking you have proved something about me. Sadly TP it reflects rather poorly on you.
Perhaps you can use it as a learning experience so that you begin to actually read things, internalise them, and THEN act on them. I dare say that you owe me an apology but I neither want one nor expect it from you. I simply wish that you would instead actually research not only your suscpicions but your "opinions" as well.
I have to say though, and i know I should not, but there you were giddy thinking you had made me look bad when you merely made yourself look much worse.
Have decency? Do yourself a favour TP, actually go back to the thread and look at Clint's post. Then scroll back and look at mine. EXACT SAME POST. Why would I repeat myself verbatim under a different name in the same thread? Not only that but as I said, ALL "Clint's" posts were verbatim renderings of other posts in other threads, by totally different people.
You say you did not "Report" me? Good, I hope it is so, it would be one less foolish thing you have done. Either way, you are wrong and need to apoligse but as I said, simply research your posts and I will be just as happy, even happier.
Had you even bothered to read the person's 17 odd threads you would have seem him/her repeating a host of posters. More than that, the post you whined about? It was a verbatim copy of my own post in the same thread! You did not even bother to look! You simply noticed my phrasing and instead of investigating you ran clicking your heels thinking you have proved something about me. Sadly TP it reflects rather poorly on you.
Perhaps you can use it as a learning experience so that you begin to actually read things, internalise them, and THEN act on them. I dare say that you owe me an apology but I neither want one nor expect it from you. I simply wish that you would instead actually research not only your suscpicions but your "opinions" as well.
I have to say though, and i know I should not, but there you were giddy thinking you had made me look bad when you merely made yourself look much worse.
Have decency? Do yourself a favour TP, actually go back to the thread and look at Clint's post. Then scroll back and look at mine. EXACT SAME POST. Why would I repeat myself verbatim under a different name in the same thread? Not only that but as I said, ALL "Clint's" posts were verbatim renderings of other posts in other threads, by totally different people.
You say you did not "Report" me? Good, I hope it is so, it would be one less foolish thing you have done. Either way, you are wrong and need to apoligse but as I said, simply research your posts and I will be just as happy, even happier.
T & P
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I've told you before and I tell you again: I did not fucking report you. So stop making false accusations.
As I said before (this is getting fucking tiresome) I did not report you, or 'clicked my heels'. I laughed at it, but for that, I am afraid, I make no apology.
On an unrelated note, but sticking to the theme of honesty and truthfulness, are you still claiming you didn't prepare in advance the 4,858 words spanning over dozens of posts that appeared within a 2.5-hour window the other day?
Do you type with your feet as well as your hands, perhaps?
Yes, I still tell the turht in saying I do not pre-prepare my post. That is ridiculous. I spend far too much time on this site as it is. Do you think my wife, family, and businesses would surivive if I spent 10 hours a day on this site? I do type fast, hence my very common spelling mistakes (those unrelated to difficulties with English). I am trying to proofread though as I go along to cut the mistakes down.
T & P
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4,858 words : 2.5 hours = 32 words per minute.
That's one word typed every two seconds, continuously, for the entire time. And when we allow even minimal amount of time for finding and reading the all posts you were replying to, replying to each one of them, spell-checking and/or proofreading the reply and submitting your post, you'd be looking at something like nearly a word every second of typing, for hours on end.
That, I'm afraid, seems quite impossible.
I don't particularly care one bit if you prepare your replies in advance or not. But you clearly are not telling the truth when you say you don't- unless you have 8 fingers on each hand and hold the world record for composition, typing and proofreading.
So if you are not even prepared to admit to something so irrelevant as that, it becomes really difficult to believe anything else you might claim.
That's one word typed every two seconds, continuously, for the entire time. And when we allow even minimal amount of time for finding and reading the all posts you were replying to, replying to each one of them, spell-checking and/or proofreading the reply and submitting your post, you'd be looking at something like nearly a word every second of typing, for hours on end.
That, I'm afraid, seems quite impossible.
I don't particularly care one bit if you prepare your replies in advance or not. But you clearly are not telling the truth when you say you don't- unless you have 8 fingers on each hand and hold the world record for composition, typing and proofreading.
So if you are not even prepared to admit to something so irrelevant as that, it becomes really difficult to believe anything else you might claim.
Well, it could be that the time came of and on if I switched screens, right? I do type very fast but do not think I can do something as fast as that. In fact whoever is timing me is doing it wrong or it is what I just said.
Just as you are wrong about Cliff, you are wrong here. Since you have seen soemthing you invested so much confidence in (thinking I was Cliff) it would behoove you to also tread lightly and leave room for the alternative.
I will say it again and let it reast. I happen to take what I say very seriously. I an not like others that could put a screenanme to rest, etc. I post under my real name and with all my personl info so that whatever I say will follow me for life. In fact, as an Israeli this is especially true. You actually think I would waste my time playing games when I already devote far too much time to this.
Wow, to imagine myself as some person sitting around for many hours each day, every day, thinking about this site would be kind of sad. I do get a laugh about your thinking though. Kind of like that sadsap who though my saying he was pro-HAMAS would cause the Home Office to kick in his door. Such people! To each their own. Think what you will.
Just as you are wrong about Cliff, you are wrong here. Since you have seen soemthing you invested so much confidence in (thinking I was Cliff) it would behoove you to also tread lightly and leave room for the alternative.
I will say it again and let it reast. I happen to take what I say very seriously. I an not like others that could put a screenanme to rest, etc. I post under my real name and with all my personl info so that whatever I say will follow me for life. In fact, as an Israeli this is especially true. You actually think I would waste my time playing games when I already devote far too much time to this.
Wow, to imagine myself as some person sitting around for many hours each day, every day, thinking about this site would be kind of sad. I do get a laugh about your thinking though. Kind of like that sadsap who though my saying he was pro-HAMAS would cause the Home Office to kick in his door. Such people! To each their own. Think what you will.
Ahhh, but THAT is true. Tempted to say something but I will not give in to base urges!
T & P
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No. I'm afraid it isn't wrong. It is impossible for you or anyone else to compose, write and post a reasonably well written and spelt-check series of posts totalling nearly 5,000 words in 2.h hours.
And if you are claiming otherwise, I'm afraid you're telling porkies.
What invested confindence would that be? As I've explained to you many times now, I did not report the post, let alone create with this Clint persona that might or might not be you. I merely laughed when I came across the only post I noticed of "Clint".
You are a tad obsessed aren't you?
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