Why isn't affordable housing a bigger electoral issue than it is?

[scott_forester]

Why is it a "ridiculous notion" that everyone should be able to buy their house? It's a thing that most people aspire to, and are in fact grumbling that they cannot presently afford.

When you talk about people buying houses "reducing the housing stock", how so? I buy a house, I live in it. One family living in one house. How has this reduced the housing stock?
.

I call it a ridiculous notion because of stupidity of the Government bemoaning the lack of social housing stock whilst at the same time selling it off at discounted rates under the right to buy.

 

[scott_forester]

Every purchase of a second house deprives someone else of a first one. The only answer is to tax them prohibitively

Now you can put property into a pension fund it's going to other way.

 

[Giles]

I call it a ridiculous notion because of stupidity of the Government bemoaning the lack of social housing stock whilst at the same time selling it off at discounted rates under the right to buy.

I would agree with you that there is plainly not enough housing, both "social" and otherwise, being built in recent years for the number of people who want their own place - rented or bought.

But I still don't see why it is a ridiculous notion for people to want their own house.

Giles..

 

[tangerinedream]

Why is it a "ridiculous notion" that everyone should be able to buy their house? It's a thing that most people aspire to, and are in fact grumbling that they cannot presently afford.

Home ownership levels have steadily increased over the last few decades. Do you not think that this is a good thing?

When you talk about people buying houses "reducing the housing stock", how so? I buy a house, I live in it. One family living in one house. How has this reduced the housing stock?

What the UK really needs is lots more houses to be built, both for sale and for rent. This would cause house prices to fall, and make it easier for would-be renters to find places to rent.

No amount of piddling measures involving council tax increases on holiday cottages is going to make much difference.

Giles..

Do you really think the problem is their isn't enough housing allready? Really?...

 

[tangerinedream]

So, I agree with you that we need a lot more houses to eas the current shortage.

Some of them should be "social" houses. But most people would like to own their own place, I think.

Giles..

Some people would like a fleet of 4*4's and twelve mansions. Some people earn minimum wage. Some people do extrordinarily valuable jobs for very little money, caring for children, the elderly, the mentally ill and so on. You believe the desire of the privilaged to control and multiply their wealth through multiple home ownership are more important than the duty of society to ensure that access to a decent standard of living?

Really.

You'll be telling me it 'drips down' next.

Building more homes is a 'piddling measure' in my view. What is a crime is in places like Stoke and burnley 'affordable' housing is being purchased en masse by private out of town landlords, knowing they can make a quick buck for comparitively little investment. This forces house price up. The only people that benefit are the already wealthy in a position to invest.

What is building new houses going to do about the hateful concept of multiple home ownership, particullaly the kind of situation outlined above?

 

[dennisr]

Some people would like a fleet of 4*4's and twelve mansions. Some people earn minimum wage. Some people do extrordinarily valuable jobs for very little money, caring for children, the elderly, the mentally ill and so on. You believe the desire of the privilaged to control and multiply their wealth through multiple home ownership are more important than the duty of society to ensure that access to a decent standard of living?

Really.

You'll be telling me it 'drips down' next.

exactly...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why is it a "ridiculous notion" that everyone should be able to buy their house? It's a thing that most people aspire to, and are in fact grumbling that they cannot presently afford.

Have you ever asked yourself exactly why so many people "aspire to" own their own homes?
The fact is that a lot of people don't actually know why except for some mumbling about "property ladders" and "equity". Most of them actually want to own property because they've been indoctrinated to believe it's the "right" course of action to take, and when one lives in a society where people are judged on their consumption...

Home ownership levels have steadily increased over the last few decades.

Wow, no shit, Sherlock!
That wouldn't have anything to do with the lack of social housing that's available meaning that even those who can't really afford to buy property pretty much have to, would it?

Do you not think that this is a good thing?

Not when;
a) home ownership continues to thin the social housing stock,
b) people have to place themselves in financial and emotional distress in order to have a roof over their heads.

When you talk about people buying houses "reducing the housing stock", how so? I buy a house, I live in it. One family living in one house. How has this reduced the housing stock?

He's referring to social housing stock, as anyone who doesn't have their head inserted in their rectum can see.

What the UK really needs is lots more houses to be built, both for sale and for rent. This would cause house prices to fall, and make it easier for would-be renters to find places to rent.

And it'll never happen because developers will never develop property that requires long-term investment for medium-yield returns when they can develop "for sale" properties that require short-term investment for high-yield returns.

No amount of piddling measures involving council tax increases on holiday cottages is going to make much difference.

I agree, which is why I'll reiterate my "punitive council tax accumulator" idea (just like I do whenever this subject turns up) again.
This requires that if you own 2 properties you have to pay your council tax for each property at the rate of the highest council tax tariff, and so on for 3 or more properties. You get NO concessions for renting your property out, but if you do so you avoid paying a "fine" at the end of each financial year for having left property idle, the fine calculated on how many days per year the property is empty.

In other words, if you want a holiday cottage, how much do you want it?

 

[Blagsta]

When did I say it was the "politics of envy"? I didn't say this at all.

I just suggested that we as a country need to be building a lot more houses, both for sale and for rent, to alleviate the current shortage.

Giles..

There seems to be no end of new housing developments in Lambeth. Unfortuntately, none of them are remotely "affordable" - in fact most are billed as "luxury".

 

[Blagsta]

But I still don't see why it is a ridiculous notion for people to want their own house.

Giles..

afaik, owning your house is less of a big deal in most other European countries, there being much cheaper rents and much more social housing

 

[William of Walworth]

Prices probably won't stay so high for that long, though, will they?

There have been several large downward "corrections" in the housing market in the last few decades.

Prices can't keep rising for ever if very few people can afford to get on the ladder.

Giles..

Is that your professional prediction Giles?

'Corrections' even if they happen, will be near-worthless to the great majority of the very many people who currently can't afford to even think of buying a flat or a house. Particularly in the SE, but also, it increasing seems, in places like Blackpool and Preston.

I'm lucky enough to have been a council tenant long term, but as far as I'm concerned there's no practical difference between a flat costing £280,000 and one costing £230,000. Or even £130,000. I earn, but not vast amounts, and prices such as them are quite simply unaffordable.

 

[gentlegreen]

Have you ever asked yourself exactly why so many people "aspire to" own their own homes?
The fact is that a lot of people don't actually know why except for some mumbling about "property ladders" and "equity". Most of them actually want to own property because they've been indoctrinated to believe it's the "right" course of action to take, and when one lives in a society where people are judged on their consumption...

When I "bought" my victorian pile 22 years ago age 24, interest rates were 15 percent so I went from paying 60 quid a month rent for one room in a shared house to 200 quid a month for 6 rooms and a garden (albeit in just about the cheapest house in town).
I'm glad I did, because no way could I afford to buy my place now. If I ever get around to making it habitable, it's "worth" 7 times what I paid for it in 1984, whereas my salary is only 3 or 4 times what it was then.
My one consolation for reaching my 47th birthday next year is I will own it lock, stock and barrel.
Had I not been struggling with mental health issues over the years, "climbing the property ladder" might have seen me less attached to my neighbours and with more garden to work with. Unfortunately the ludicrous hike in property prices means I'm unlikely to find the nerve to take on a new, bigger mortgage for the next 20 years ...

.

 

[William of Walworth]

I would agree with you that there is plainly not enough housing, both "social" and otherwise, being built in recent years for the number of people who want their own place - rented or bought.

But I still don't see why it is a ridiculous notion for people to want their own house

Even when it's part of the existing pool of social housing stock, and will not be replaced if sold off? You favour right to buy?

I favour TOTAL ABOLITION of the right to buy Council/social housing. Even if there were guarentees (nonexistant ever since RTB was introduced) that each one sold would be replaced, I would still take a lot of persuading that abolition of RTB was a bad idea.

As a tenant, I appreciate I'm going to be much in the minority in holding this view though

 

[William of Walworth]

Any money I end up getting (at some point in the next few years I should inherit a smallish amount from my parents) will go STRAIGHT into buying extra years (ie slightly earlier retirement) on my (very good) pension scheme.

Mortgages that you absolutely struggle to keep up with are not for me.

 

[poster342002]

There seems to be no end of new housing developments in Lambeth. Unfortuntately, none of them are remotely "affordable" - in fact most are billed as "luxury".

And here lies a large part of the problem. How many of these can they justify being built? Howmany of them stand empty for years while ordinary people are forced to live with their parents at the age of 30+ ?

 

[poster342002]

There seems to be no end of new housing developments in Lambeth. Unfortuntately, none of them are remotely "affordable" - in fact most are billed as "luxury".

And here lies a large part of the problem. How many of these can they justify being built? How many of them stand empty for years while ordinary people are forced to live with their parents at the age of 30+ ?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I left the country for a number of reasons, but primary among these was the stress involved in having to live in a bedsit - where you never have security and might get asked to leave at any time. I was a professionally qualified single peson aged forty and my salary although less that the national average was not disgracefully low. But I hadn't even a chance to rent a bedsit, a place on my own.

I don't blame home ownership for this: I think it's the wrong target. But selling off council stock cheaply is top blame, failing to replace it is to blame, failing to build social housing is to blame, failing to make second home ownership is to blame, relying on the market is very much to blame and so is having people cry "politics of envy" every time you observe that you cannot cater for the people at the bottom - and in this instance, many millions of them quite some way above the bottom - without placing restrictions on the well-off.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

But why isn't it an issue? Well, the answer is that nobody is actually proposing to remedy the situation and nobody believes that any of the major parties (i.e. those who might actually be in a position to act) will do so. And this is because they're all after the approval of the same people, to wit the well-off and the media that they control.

Economically, the parties serve the affluent. The rest of us are kept in line by campaigns against criminals and immigrants.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Any money I end up getting (at some point in the next few years I should inherit a smallish amount from my parents) will go STRAIGHT into buying extra years (ie slightly earlier retirement) on my (very good) pension scheme.

Mortgages that you absolutely struggle to keep up with are not for me.

That's all very well for you William, you're in a very fortunate position to have an inheritance and a pension, and by your own admission a very good one at that, to look forward to. Many, many people are not so fortunate.

I've put in for the right to buy, which you'd want to deny me.

My reasons are:

* wanting to get the unbelievably incompetent local auithority landlord out of my life (I'm curently suing them for disrepairs following a roof leak and damage caused to my flat and my furnidhings by their workmen). i want to take respondibleity foir my flat, for repairs and maintenance,

* wanting to secure a roof over my head in the long term - i will have more security if i know the council can't evict me - they've already tried several times, once for using my washing machine and they didn'[t tell me a neighbour had complained about the noise (yeah, like I'm really a bad neighbur because i wash my clothes! ) and the ciouncil assured him that if he kept a diary of when i used my washer they would seek to evict me. they've also f***ed up my husing benefit claim and are trying to evict me for rent arrears (court hearing scheduled for next week).

* wnating to secure my long term future. i don't have a pension (for reasons too loing, complicated and boring to go into). i see that owning my flat will provide my my pension - becauswe i reckon in 30 years time there wont be a state pension, so if i own my flat, i can rent out a room to a lodger to provide a little buit of income for living expnses, or in the event i need to go into residetial care, selling my flat at that stage will pay for it.

 

[ZWord]

Even when it's part of the existing pool of social housing stock, and will not be replaced if sold off? You favour right to buy?

I favour TOTAL ABOLITION of the right to buy Council/social housing. Even if there were guarentees (nonexistant ever since RTB was introduced) that each one sold would be replaced, I would still take a lot of persuading that abolition of RTB was a bad idea.

As a tenant, I appreciate I'm going to be much in the minority in holding this view though

With apologies for sounding a bit daily mail about this, - one of the bizarre features of the right to buy, is when, for example, an Italian single mother gets a council flat, sublets it and goes travelling most of the time, and eventually buys it at a massive discount from the government with money from her dad. (someone I know) Is this right?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

So, I agree with you that we need a lot more houses to eas the current shortage.

Some of them should be "social" houses. But most people would like to own their own place, I think.

Giles..

do you mean council housing or housing association. there is a real difference between the two.

 

[William of Walworth]

Just seen this

That's all very well for you William, you're in a very fortunate position to have an inheritance and a pension, and by your own admission a very good one at that, to look forward to. Many, many people are not so fortunate.

Have I ever denied that I'm fortunate? I absolutely haven't.

And in case you imagine I'm due to inherit vast sums, we're talking somewhere in the region of 10 or at most 15 grand here, and my brother and sister and I have all agreed to spilt whatever's there evenly. None of us are coining it. And our parents never did.

I've put in for the right to buy, which you'd want to deny me.

My reasons are:

* wanting to get the unbelievably incompetent local auithority landlord out of my life (I'm curently suing them for disrepairs following a roof leak and damage caused to my flat and my furnidhings by their workmen). i want to take respondibleity foir my flat, for repairs and maintenance,

* wanting to secure a roof over my head in the long term - i will have more security if i know the council can't evict me - they've already tried several times, once for using my washing machine and they didn'[t tell me a neighbour had complained about the noise (yeah, like I'm really a bad neighbur because i wash my clothes! ) and the ciouncil assured him that if he kept a diary of when i used my washer they would seek to evict me. they've also f***ed up my husing benefit claim and are trying to evict me for rent arrears (court hearing scheduled for next week).

* wnating to secure my long term future. i don't have a pension (for reasons too loing, complicated and boring to go into). i see that owning my flat will provide my my pension - becauswe i reckon in 30 years time there wont be a state pension, so if i own my flat, i can rent out a room to a lodger to provide a little buit of income for living expnses, or in the event i need to go into residetial care, selling my flat at that stage will pay for it.

Valid reasons indeed for wanting to detach yourself from the Council but can I ask -- which Council are you?

Again, I'm lucky (which I've never denied). Mine are not too bad.

Will return to the broader political issues relating to RTB tomorrow ... or soon ...

 

[William of Walworth]

With apologies for sounding a bit daily mail about this, - one of the bizarre features of the right to buy, is when, for example, an Italian single mother gets a council flat, sublets it and goes travelling most of the time, and eventually buys it at a massive discount from the government with money from her dad. (someone I know) Is this right?

Hard cases make bad law.

Of course it's not right (nothing to do with her being Italian though -- just the way she exploits the system).

But I'm not sure what you conclude from it

 

[Giles]

Even when it's part of the existing pool of social housing stock, and will not be replaced if sold off? You favour right to buy?

I favour TOTAL ABOLITION of the right to buy Council/social housing. Even if there were guarentees (nonexistant ever since RTB was introduced) that each one sold would be replaced, I would still take a lot of persuading that abolition of RTB was a bad idea.

As a tenant, I appreciate I'm going to be much in the minority in holding this view though

I think that RTB was a bad idea given the prohibition on the councils building more places with the resulting dosh. If they had HAD to build "one for one" it would have been rather like a "sustainable forest" - plant at least one tree for each mature one cut down for the wood. But the way it has been done is short-sighted and stupid, I agree.

Re price falls and lower prices: I was very fortunate to buy my first flat in London (Willesden - a 2 bed in need of a fair bit of work) in 1992, for £49,000, which at that time I could just about afford (3 x £15K earnings). A few years before that, in the late 80s, prices were at similar "mad" levels to today, and at that time I could never imagine affording anywhere, ever. You never know.

Giles..

 

[oryx]

I've put in for the right to buy, which you'd want to deny me.

My reasons are:

* wanting to get the unbelievably incompetent local auithority landlord out of my life (I'm curently suing them for disrepairs following a roof leak and damage caused to my flat and my furnidhings by their workmen). i want to take respondibleity foir my flat, for repairs and maintenance,

By doing the RTB you won't get the local authority landlord out of your life. Unless you're buying the freehold of a council house (which I infer from your posts you're not) they will still be your freeholder and will be charging you a service charge & costs for major repairs. A couple of my friends own ex-LA flats and they moan like mad about excessive/inaccurate charges.

I agree with William that the RTB should be repealed. Partly because I'm pretty sure a causal link to an increase in homelessness has been proved, and partly because abuse of the RTB is rampant.

Unfortunately I can't see this happening as it is seen as a vote loser.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

By doing the RTB you won't get the local authority landlord out of your life. Unless you're buying the freehold of a council house (which I infer from your posts you're not) they will still be your freeholder and will be charging you a service charge & costs for major repairs. A couple of my friends own ex-LA flats and they moan like mad about excessive/inaccurate charges.

local authority are currently taking the proverbial regarding service charges, wanting to charge me £1,400### per annum when there are other leaseholders on my estate paying around £700/800 (fairly recent acquisitions) and as low as £300 (bought a while ago). The LA can f*** right off. I'm taking them to a Tribunal. But it is putting a lot of people off buying (which I and a lot of other people reckon is the aim).

Also in the pipeline is the possibility of buying the freehold. There are three flats in my (low level) block. One other tenant has also put in for RTB. You need 50% flats in leasehold ownership, and 66% of those to vote to buy freehold. Then we can take control of the block and set reasonable service charges.

I'm already planning to have my lease varied in any event, so that I'm responsiblefor the roof above my flat and for the windows. Yes, it will cost me, but I'm not ihn this to make a fast buck, I'm in this to make a secure home for myself. If I'm responsible for my own repairs and maintenance, they won't really have a leg to stand on when it comes to service charges, ecept for lighting and cleaning the communal areas, which *won't* be worth £1,400 per annum.

They just expect p[eople to capitulate, but i have a legal background and can tie them up in legal knots!

### for comparison p[urposes, £1,400 is tyhe kind of sum you'd expect tp [pay in a private development with 24 hour security/concierge service, secure parking and in-house gym/pool facilities, none of which we have.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Nothing wrong with the RTB. What I think is wrong with it are the ridiculous profit margins involved. I think that they should be able to be bought and only sold on in accordance with inflation. One ex colleague in Forest Gate bought her studio form the council for 12,000 and sold it for 95,000. That cannot be right.

 

[ZWord]

Hard cases make bad law.

Of course it's not right (nothing to do with her being Italian though -- just the way she exploits the system).

But I'm not sure what you conclude from it

I conclude that I'm envious, - (as I don't have a home and the council won't give me one) and I suppose, I end up thinking that council houses maybe should only be available to british passport holders.