Why is the left so marginalised?
- Thread starter urbanrevolt
- Start date
Spion
I hear ya
As a minimum I think it's dishonest to hide your views if you have them.mk12 said:
And to be frank, this 'ooh, it's patronising to tell people what you think' is, well, patronising. Like w/c people can't deal with honestly-put viewpoints and are incapable of arguing back. IME, it's the middle classes that tend to be shy about being straightforward with people.
Have some backbone!
cockneyrebel
New Member
Totally dishonest and cynical way of debating. Saying that you should be honest about what you think and not being scared about suggesting a way forward is not the way as the above.
The method you support has also led to a national manifesto don't forget.
And as it goes I agree with the saying that "one step forward for the working class is worth 1000 programmes". Which is why I think it's important for people to get out there and actually do something, and not whinge that they can't find anyone to agree with them, rather than just criticising.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Spion your posts 602 and 603 seem at odds with each other. On the one hand you argue that the working class are quite capable of holding their corner in a debate wth the revolutionary left, while on the other they are in peril of being duped by nationalists or worse. Why should they be less capable of seeing through the bullshit from the right than of appreciating the pearls of wisdom from the left?
Also given the track record of the revolutionary left in the UK, I think a little more humility would be in order when it comes to providing answers.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
Also given the track record of the revolutionary left in the UK, I think a little more humility would be in order when it comes to providing answers.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
Spion said:
It's that mentality though - as Louis Macneice says. The "working class" is just a mass of people who soak up opinions, and the left and the right are fighting each other to provide the correct analysis to this "working class". It's a top down approach, which makes "the working class" look like mindless dupes, incapable of critical thought, and who just swallow what they're told. I bet you slag off "sun readers" too.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Again why take the most cynical interpretation of what someone is saying? Who says that people are "less capable" or that someone saying putting forward ideas is "pearls of wisdom". Whether you say it or not you put forward ideas that you think are right and try and convince others of those ideas. That doesn't mean you don't think you could be wrong or that you can't learn from others. As was said above it's a two way process.
Some people do have reactionary ideas and do believe in the ideas of reactionary organisations. Do you think they've come to the wrong conclusions?
Edit due to needlessly tetchy post.
I'm just going by what spion has said on here, not knowing him in real life. He asked this: "You want those answers to come from somewhere else?" which assumes the answers must come from either them (far-right) or "us" (the left). Not the w/c in general. If that's wrong, then fair enough - im willing to be proved wrong (thats the point of discussion boards after all). But going by his posts in the past, I don't think it is wrong.
urbanrevolt
New Member
durruti02 said:well i am glad we agree in those questions .. do you not see though that the left seems to miss these issues generally .. and yes they are 'our' old people 'our' soldiers .. you see you automatically assume that this is some nationalist crap .. no my friend it is about class
my programme? what again?? i thought people were tired of it! ok .. that the key issues is that revolution will not vere happen while concepts of change are seen as alien to the w/c ( as they now are) and something that is imposed from above ( leninism/leftism). The programme is simple .. rebuild confidence by rebuilding community and unions .. anything that creates power in the community, empowers people/workers/unions etc is good
you i suspect stick with this idea that we need a programme/manifsto/aims and principles etc etc .. i reject this ... IF there is ever to be a revolution it will come from people generally .. IF we stick to this idea that ideology is solely introduced from the outside ( leftism) we replicate all bourgois ( and fascist) ideologies
Interesting points but I think too simplistic really. I will think about it, though and repsond tomorrow or over weekend.
Partly agree with Spion I think but think durruti02 raises interesting points but then goes too far. genuinely interesting though and will think about it but gotta get ot bed as job interview in morning.
urbanrevolt
New Member
Durutti I think raises some key issues and for that reason whilst I share some of Spion and CR's concerns I think nevertheless it is very important to acknowledge where I do agree (and indeed suspect CR woould too).
The old approach of unravelling our program and saying this is it is clearly not going to work. OK- it's a cliche and perhaps an unfair one in some ways of what the left have done but all too often even groups I've been involved in (well one at least) have done this at least some of the time.
We need to be absolutely clear that politics is about self-emancipation, about groups of workers discovering for ourselves our own collective power, imagination and creativity to transform our own lives- and other groups of workers borrowing from this, being inspired but not taking it on as a blueprint but as a method to evolve and apply to different social and histroical contexts.
Good absolutely. If leftism or leninism means imposition from above then we are against it. It has to be about the confidence of working class communities and their self-activity.
We should break from the idea that the program is something fixed and given.
Should we also break from the idea of program altogether?
As it clearly has all too often been something schematically posed and sometimes imposed on events, then I think we do need to start in a differnt place.
To redvelop idewas about how to transform society and the economy- borrowing from previous ideas - soviets, workers' councils, popular assemblies. organs of working class rule and direct democracy- but re-applying them, working out again for ourselves new ways of doing things etc.
Within this though are there some things we should fight for? Equality? Freedom? Against racism/homophobia/sexism? For direct democracy in the economy and society?
I think so. And to that extent we should I think have at least suggestions- e.g. workers' control, of opening the books and computer files, of democratic neighbiurhod communities to which workers can bring all thier concerens and discuss our differences.
They are only suggestions not blueprints and as the left have been heavy on answers, low on participation, then a time without programs or ten points or whatever may be very welcome I think.
Let's try to get away from the schemas of left-wing journalism- ending with a couple of slogans normally with an exclamation mark at the end.
Yes. However, let's not be afraid to discuss ideas, to put forward suggestions, to engage in political debate. I think people are searching for answers- not for some group or person to give answers on a plate but as part of an enquiry about how to actually win in the struggles we face- e.g. how to actually fight a strike, organise workers, fight against our own union bureacracy as much as the bosses.
Sure, we shouldn't go in and say, "Well this is how it is." But to look at the experience of other workers who've gone through such strikes and struggles could - and I emphasise could- be useful.
Sure, when people say our lads in the army or our old folk they are talking about a sense of community often based on families, neigbourhoods and localities and to a large extent class.
However, every day those popular news sheets of the bourgeois- the daily papers- elide this 'our' into a sense of nationhood so 'our boys are fighting for our interests'. Well, no they;re not, unfortunately. Working class soldiers are being sent to die for the needs of millionaires, to protect markets and it's a total and utter disgrace. Sometimes we need to be explicit on this I think.
The old approach of unravelling our program and saying this is it is clearly not going to work. OK- it's a cliche and perhaps an unfair one in some ways of what the left have done but all too often even groups I've been involved in (well one at least) have done this at least some of the time.
We need to be absolutely clear that politics is about self-emancipation, about groups of workers discovering for ourselves our own collective power, imagination and creativity to transform our own lives- and other groups of workers borrowing from this, being inspired but not taking it on as a blueprint but as a method to evolve and apply to different social and histroical contexts.
durruti02 said:
Good absolutely. If leftism or leninism means imposition from above then we are against it. It has to be about the confidence of working class communities and their self-activity.
durruti02 said:
We should break from the idea that the program is something fixed and given.
Should we also break from the idea of program altogether?
As it clearly has all too often been something schematically posed and sometimes imposed on events, then I think we do need to start in a differnt place.
To redvelop idewas about how to transform society and the economy- borrowing from previous ideas - soviets, workers' councils, popular assemblies. organs of working class rule and direct democracy- but re-applying them, working out again for ourselves new ways of doing things etc.
Within this though are there some things we should fight for? Equality? Freedom? Against racism/homophobia/sexism? For direct democracy in the economy and society?
I think so. And to that extent we should I think have at least suggestions- e.g. workers' control, of opening the books and computer files, of democratic neighbiurhod communities to which workers can bring all thier concerens and discuss our differences.
They are only suggestions not blueprints and as the left have been heavy on answers, low on participation, then a time without programs or ten points or whatever may be very welcome I think.
Let's try to get away from the schemas of left-wing journalism- ending with a couple of slogans normally with an exclamation mark at the end.
durruti02 said:
Yes. However, let's not be afraid to discuss ideas, to put forward suggestions, to engage in political debate. I think people are searching for answers- not for some group or person to give answers on a plate but as part of an enquiry about how to actually win in the struggles we face- e.g. how to actually fight a strike, organise workers, fight against our own union bureacracy as much as the bosses.
Sure, we shouldn't go in and say, "Well this is how it is." But to look at the experience of other workers who've gone through such strikes and struggles could - and I emphasise could- be useful.
durruti02 said:.. and yes they are 'our' old people 'our' soldiers .. you see you automatically assume that this is some nationalist crap .. no my friend it is about class
Sure, when people say our lads in the army or our old folk they are talking about a sense of community often based on families, neigbourhoods and localities and to a large extent class.
However, every day those popular news sheets of the bourgeois- the daily papers- elide this 'our' into a sense of nationhood so 'our boys are fighting for our interests'. Well, no they;re not, unfortunately. Working class soldiers are being sent to die for the needs of millionaires, to protect markets and it's a total and utter disgrace. Sometimes we need to be explicit on this I think.
Spion said:
Can't agree with that Spion.
I think durrutis position is close to mine. ( Without wishing to discredit him too much)
Neither of us want to hide or disguise what we think. Both of us are more than capable of saying what we think. But both think that the important thing is relating what we think to what other people think. And both us would agree that just occasionally we might possibly be wrong about things..... Especially him....the liberal twat.....oooops sorry mate not really...Happy Christmas and A Majoritarian Socialist New Year....
mk12 said:
You know what MK i agree with most of that...But in quite a hypocritical way...I liked your other post about us all being full of prejudice...
Everytime i se somebody reading the mail on the tube...my prejudices go into overdrive.....mind ticking over 100 mph....Rothermere, Nazis, Wankers etc etc...
Yet on here if somebody goes on about Mail readers, i want to slag them off....
Me im just a miserable old bastard....
But i do think the only way forward for anybody who calls themselves a Socialist, is Socialism from Below...
Not in the SWP/etc etc sense... But genuine trial and error, the masses in control.
urbanrevolt
New Member
Can you explain?newbie said:
urbanrevolt
New Member
mk12 said:
Might explain your views on immigration
OK, being serious, though, I think the idea that you can read people's politics off the papers they read is pretty offensive really- of course there might be a loose correlation which may be as much about readers choosing papers as anything else.
However, I don't think we need to simplisitcally either see people as passive readers/receivers of opinion or think the press is free.
The press is owned by big business magnates and the opinions in many papers are very influenced by that. Of course the working class readers are perfectly capable of making up their own minds but when sources of information are systematically distorted it can have an undue influence even on intelligent and literate audiences.
Very true.
Doesn't this contradict what you just said? It's offensive to say people's opinions are determined by the paper they read, but people's opinions are...influenced (in some way) by the paper they read?
I think the media sets the agenda. IE. It is quite infuelntial in determining what topics are on people's lips (Maddelaine shows this clearly).
newbie
undisambiguated
urbanrevolt said:
Self emancipation of the working class isn't even close to what politics is about. It may be what you'd like, what you think we should all want, but when you write something like that it's simply your spin, your attempt to influence what we, your readers, think.
If you want my opinion, politics is about individuals seeking to influence groups. This happens in a formal way at every level, from branch cttee or parish council through to much larger constituencies. But it also happens in less formal settings, including discussions like this as individuals with clear ideas seek to influence the rest of us.
newbie said:If you want my opinion, politics is about individuals seeking to influence groups. This happens in a formal way at every level, from branch cttee or parish council through to much larger constituencies. But it also happens in less formal settings, including discussions like this as individuals with clear ideas seek to influence the rest of us.
Yeah. But it can also go the other way at times as well.
Groups of people can try and influence individuals who hold positions of power etc.
I think the poll tax was interesting one for the left in the UK. A lot of the organised left the SWP etc were taken by suprise by the poll tax.
But people demonstrated against it cos they saw it as clearly being against their self interest.
Sadly a lot of Leftie Liberals think Self Interest is some kind of right wing curse....
Gmart
Well-Known Member
It also saw the tax burden on the land owner significantly reduced, while not leaving a system which effectively protected and used the land for the greater good. We can't even agree on what to replace it with because we are trapped arguing with each other rather than trying to achieve a consensus using our brains.
urbanrevolt
New Member
mk12 said:
Don't think it's a contradiction to say it's offensive to see people's opinions as determined by media but acknowledge they have an influence-
people only have a finite number of sources of information.
Actually your argument about setting the agenda is perhaps a useful way of looking at it.
Newbie, I of course meant what politics should be- think this was fairly clear from the context of my post?
If I see someone reading the Mail I just assume they're the sort of person who sits by the curtain and twitches, rather than that they're a proper nazi.
newbie
undisambiguated
urbanrevolt said:
but isn't wishing something as basic as politics (how groups express themselves) as something other than it is as good a reason why the left is marginalised as any other?
You're asking father christmas to make the w/c discover how to evolve collective power such that lives are transformed, based on creatively self-emancipating groups. If your economic and social ideas can't gain currency until the group discovers a different way to express itself they'll remain entirely marginal.
Misha Glenny The Rebirth of History - quote - "The historical enemy was defeated in a series of stunnung revolutions that sought to thow off the burden of a socilaism that claimed to be based on scientific principles....for the majority of the populaton the vocabulary associated with socialism is identified with economic failure and repression".
For someone like me who is signed up to some socialist future - this is revealing, even although it relates to 1989. In hard marketing parlance - if your product is not being bought - you either change the product or change your marketing strategy.
Why is the left marginalised in the UK? The left have never addressed the latter 2 questions. It has to leave its comfort zone and get away from knowing everything about the Russian revolution. This is not 1917 nor do we have the same issues that affected Russia then.
Different times need a different strategy. Let us stop about whining why are we so marginalised? We need to come together and start some serious moves to change the situation.
For someone like me who is signed up to some socialist future - this is revealing, even although it relates to 1989. In hard marketing parlance - if your product is not being bought - you either change the product or change your marketing strategy.
Why is the left marginalised in the UK? The left have never addressed the latter 2 questions. It has to leave its comfort zone and get away from knowing everything about the Russian revolution. This is not 1917 nor do we have the same issues that affected Russia then.
Different times need a different strategy. Let us stop about whining why are we so marginalised? We need to come together and start some serious moves to change the situation.
elbows
Well-Known Member
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