Why is it so bad to deny the holocaust?

[Jon-of-arc]

but 9/11 conspiracy theorists? not as bad as fascists, but still quite offensive in a number of ways. Potentially dangerous to society, in that they can (and are) wasting millions of tax payer dollars on harrassing the US government. Similarly, there are revolutionary factions amongst them.

Also, what about antifa? An anti fascist organisation, they do their best to intimidate fascists (a criminal act). But conservatives don't try and criminalise them making out that stalin wasn't as bad as some people thought....

Besides, it's the campaign of violent intimidation that worries me, not the moronic posturing. It's a short step from criminalising holocaust denial to criminalising an anti-immigration stance, imo

 

[Y_I_Otter]

We do not think anymore of Ghengis Khan as evil, he was an emperor, but what he did was arguably just as bad as what Hitler did. Ghengis Khan butchered the complete populations of cities.

How could that be less evil than Hitler?

It wasn't. It isn't a contest.

And there aren't a bunch of loonies trying to gloss over what he did in order to sanitise Khanism as a viable political alternative for the present day.

 

[butchersapron]

I assume the name of one David Irving (washes keyboard clean) will pop up at some point during this debate.

As an historian myself, don't get me started on what the likes of Irving have done to the cause of honest and accurate historical study because I could go on for hours.

Although, to be honest, it should be pretty obvious to all concerned what David Irving's affiliation and motives are.

I don't believe in having the denial of the Holocaust as a matter of law, no, but I do believe in the deniers being subject to the utmost hostility and ridicule from anyone with reputable historical credentials. The sad thing about Irving is that he might once, and before his agenda came to light, have been considered as a potentially promising historian. Until, that is, he perverted his talents, and the cause of decent and honest historians everywhere, into becoming a propagandist for the far right.

Irving was a fantastic historian, one who came up with sources that no one else managed to. Even Tim Mason paid him tribute saying that there was no better archival historian. Mason of course, killed himself, before Irving changed his earlier acceptance that the holocaust happened to denial that it happened on pupose, then the numbers involved etc, and offering a whopping £100 to any who could provide post-mortem evidence of gassing. generous bloke.

 

[butchersapron]

but 9/11 conspiracy theorists? not as bad as fascists, but still quite offensive in a number of ways. Potentially dangerous to society, in that they can (and are) wasting millions of tax payer dollars on harrassing the US government. Similarly, there are revolutionary factions amongst them.

Also, what about antifa? An anti fascist organisation, they do their best to intimidate fascists (a criminal act). But conservatives don't try and criminalise them making out that stalin wasn't as bad as some people thought....

Besides, it's the campaign of violent intimidation that worries me, not the moronic posturing. It's a short step from criminalising holocaust denial to criminalising an anti-immigration stance, imo

I think you've just outed yourself jon.

 

[weltweit]

Why so bad to deny the Holocaust?

- The Holocaust as perpetrated by the Nazis was an evil act.

- The slaughter of cities of people by Ghengis Khan was also arguably evil.

- The obliteration of Hiroshima & Nagasaki was equal to Ghengis Khan.

Should we be permitted to deny any of these 3 evil acts of history and many more?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Actually, it's not illegal to deny the Holocaust in Canada. There is no law on the books analagous to those in effect in countries like Germany and Austria. It's often claimed by deniers that this is so, based on the legal travails of people like Ernst Zündel and David Irving, but that's a blatant falsehood.

You're right and I'm wrong. I was going on the memory of Zundel's conviction, but the SCC overturned the law under which he was convicted.

 

[butchersapron]

But chucked him out the country IIRC

 

[FridgeMagnet]

but 9/11 conspiracy theorists? not as bad as fascists, but still quite offensive in a number of ways. Potentially dangerous to society, in that they can (and are) wasting millions of tax payer dollars on harrassing the US government. Similarly, there are revolutionary factions amongst them.

What about them? Are they bad? Sometimes, yeah, not in the same way, but what's the connection?

Also, what about antifa? An anti fascist organisation, they do their best to intimidate fascists (a criminal act). But conservatives don't try and criminalise them making out that stalin wasn't as bad as some people thought....

Antifa are Stalinists? Do me a favour.

Besides, it's the campaign of violent intimidation that worries me, not the moronic posturing. It's a short step from criminalising holocaust denial to criminalising an anti-immigration stance, imo

The idea of criminalising something is not one that was actually in your original post. That's a different matter to "why is it bad?".

 

[butchersapron]

61 posts - is that a record?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

We do not think anymore of Ghengis Khan as evil, he was an emperor, but what he did was arguably just as bad as what Hitler did. Ghengis Khan butchered the complete populations of cities.

How could that be less evil than Hitler?

Things have to be seen in the context of their times. What GK did was bad, but it was relatively par for the course in his time, which was barbaric.

We have attempted to make civilization better since those days. We don't sacrifice animals to the moon, we don't kill unwanted girl children, there are lots of things we don't do, that they did.

We thought that we were beyond the genocide part also, but Hitler proved us wrong. His evil is also noteworthy in the application of modern industrial techniques to slaughtering humans.

In the days of Genghis, maybe you weren't going to win, but at least the slaughter, was a big battle. Hitler used the civility of others to get his victims to go along peacefully, and then despatched them with gas etc, like we might do to an infestation of aphids in an apple orchard.

There is a difference.

 

[Fedayn]

but 9/11 conspiracy theorists? not as bad as fascists, but still quite offensive in a number of ways. Potentially dangerous to society, in that they can (and are) wasting millions of tax payer dollars on harrassing the US government. Similarly, there are revolutionary factions amongst them.

Also, what about antifa? An anti fascist organisation, they do their best to intimidate fascists (a criminal act). But conservatives don't try and criminalise them making out that stalin wasn't as bad as some people thought....

Besides, it's the campaign of violent intimidation that worries me, not the moronic posturing. It's a short step from criminalising holocaust denial to criminalising an anti-immigration stance, imo

Scratches chin..... and next we have.....?

 

[weltweit]

... There is a difference.

And just a bit later, Hiroshima & Nagasaki, we incinerate them in a fireball? "Post industrial" perhaps.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

You're right and I'm wrong. I was going on the memory of Zundel's conviction, but the SCC overturned the law under which he was convicted.

Convicted twice-- in 1985 and again in 1988. In the end, the Supremes deemed that the law forbidding "Spreading False News" was unconstitutional.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

61 posts - is that a record?

Indulge a n00b-- what usually happens?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

And just a bit later, Hiroshima & Nagasaki, we incinerate them in a fireball? "Post industrial" perhaps.

It may be a thin difference, but Japan and the US were at war. Japan had killed its share of americans, beginning with Pearl Harbour.

Hitler exterminated citizens of his own country, to start with. He killed them not because they were enemy combatants, but because he had classed them as subhuman.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Unique in its modernity and efficiency I'd say.

They industrialised it.

apart from pol pot stalin dafur somalia palestine vietnam arminian and some others i have temporaily forgotten of course... nothing unique in it's modernity or efficiency at all in reality...

the only thing which set's it apart is the level and prestensity of those on both sides who attempt to make political capital out of it for their own ends.

that being said and it's another thread i guess but i wonder if isreal would have ever come into being had it not been for the holocaust or whether there would merely be a sizeable jewish population in palestine

 

[butchersapron]

Indulge a n00b-- what usually happens?

Normally they just come out with it (i have more repsect for those idiots). A game of uncovering/back covering then ensues. The post about antifa in #61 gave the game away.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Convicted twice-- in 1985 and again in 1988. In the end, the Supremes deemed that the law forbidding "Spreading False News" was unconstitutional.

I didn't like Zundel, that fat little worm, but I didn't agree with his conviction. Keegstra, was rightfully convicted, imo.

 

[cesare]

The average person who accepts the normative interpretation of the Holocaust more or less as read will most often have only a cursory knowledge of the specific events. When a denier comes along with some old, oft-debunked canard that sounds, on the surface, plausible, it's usually necessary to go into some detail to refute it properly. Most people have neither time nor the intellectual curiosity to plumb the depths of what is unquestionably a very depressing subject. In the end, what they "believe" will be determined mainly by their disposition towards Jews generally.

Well that certainly applies to me in terms of being fairly average, always accepted the normative interpretation. It was only fairly recently that I realised that holocaust denial even existed (and the attendant links to conspiracy theorists) and that was only because of the Nick Kollstrom (sp?) affair. Even from that ignorant viewpoint it didn't take me long to see what was out there, which dismayed me. Plus then talking to people that had further and better information, e.g. direct experience of visiting death camps. I think fridgie just probably summarised it best so far from my still limited POV.

Holocaust Denial now sets my antennae twitching

 

[butchersapron]

apart from pol pot stalin dafur somalia palestine vietnam arminian and some others i have temporaily forgotten of course... nothing unique in it's modernity or efficiency at all in reality...

oh ffs, do you even read the posts you attempt to respond to? Show us where any of those situations had camps for gassing people ran along bureaucratic rationalised lines. Just a single one.

Off the thread garf.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I'd not make it a crime. The ridicule and unshakeable antisemite tag will do.

what have the other semitic tribes got to do with jews being killed in europe?

if you are going to ridicule them at least use the correct terminology, Judeophobic.

 

[butchersapron]

garf get off the thread.

 

[frogwoman]

Denying it completely/ saying that it was 100,000-ish max

What forms of completely denying it is acceptable? Who with?

denying that the porrajmos - the roma holocaust - happened for a start. pointing out that proportionally the numbers of gypsies killed in proportion to their population exceeded that of the jews has in fact led to accusations (among some) of anti-semitism

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

that being said and it's another thread i guess but i wonder if isreal would have ever come into being had it not been for the holocaust or whether there would merely be a sizeable jewish population in palestine

I don't think that it would, and I believe that part of the current revisionism concerning the holocaust, arises from a desire to remove any underpinnings of legitimacy or sympathy behind the foundation of Israel, and thus complete the modern demonization of israelis/jews.

 

[butchersapron]

Or, as you so rightly accused me of recently JC2, arguing that the jews had it coming so fuck Israel.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

what have the other semitic tribes got to do with jews being killed in europe?

if you are going to ridicule them at least use the correct terminology, Judeophobic.

'Semitic' refers to a language group, and not to a race of people. How many times does this need to be repeated?

 

[cesare]

but 9/11 conspiracy theorists? not as bad as fascists, but still quite offensive in a number of ways. Potentially dangerous to society, in that they can (and are) wasting millions of tax payer dollars on harrassing the US government. Similarly, there are revolutionary factions amongst them.

Also, what about antifa? An anti fascist organisation, they do their best to intimidate fascists (a criminal act). But conservatives don't try and criminalise them making out that stalin wasn't as bad as some people thought....

Besides, it's the campaign of violent intimidation that worries me, not the moronic posturing. It's a short step from criminalising holocaust denial to criminalising an anti-immigration stance, imo

Well you're entitled to your opinion, but you sound downright dodgy to me.

 

[Detroit City]

'Semitic' refers to a language group, and not to a race of people. How many times does this need to be repeated?

i don't know....but i do know the word "latino" falls in the same class

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

oh ffs, do you even read the posts you attempt to respond to? Show us where any of those situations had camps for gassing people ran along bureaucratic rationalised lines. Just a single one.

Off the thread garf.

yawn of course...

Armenian Genocide

Khmer Rouge

Vietnam

Janjaweed

Somalia

but the aren't as bad as gas cambers according to the mighty butchers...

like i said those people with their own agendas...

perhaps it's time for you to read a little...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I don't think that it would, and I believe that part of the current revisionism concerning the holocaust, arises from a desire to remove any underpinnings of legitimacy or sympathy behind the foundation of Israel, and thus complete the modern demonization of israelis/jews.

they are two entirely seperate things in my view ...