Why is everyone such an expert about Israel

[CyberRose]

I did something I now regret. I went to amazon and did a search. It sounds like a pot-boiler of every conspiracy theory and piece of speculative archaeology ever thought of.

Then I checked out some independent reviews of it.

Is it really as badly written as it sounds?

I find it amazing that someone who has actually contributed to a thread on the Da Vinci Code could know so little about it!

 

[tangentlama]

I find it amazing that someone who has actually contributed to a thread on the Da Vinci Code could know so little about it!

ViolentPanda probably read the source books which the author of the Da Vinci Code used as reference

 

[CyberRose]

ViolentPanda probably read the source books which the author of the Da Vinci Code used as reference

You mean the books he copied off?!

Anyway, the Da Vinci Code has sold more copies now than the Bible and the only reason slag it off is cos they think it makes them look cool!!!

 

[moono]

Anyway, the Da Vinci Code has sold more copies now than the Bible

Isn't that a bit like being 665th in the pop charts ?

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Everyone and their mother is an expert about Israel, it's boring.

Is anti-Zionism a replacement for social lives or something?

Why not anti-Turkishism or whatever Kurdish people call their thing?

It's geo-politics. You need to understand Israel's position in the region, its 200 plus nuclear weapons with which it threatens its Arab neighbours. It desires more land and more resources, and that is leading to a conflict that could become global... Read Brezinski's The Grand Chessboard.

Further, Israel, as the last European colonial endeavour, has a terrible human rights record, it must be defeated.

So there are a number of reasons why Israel concerns me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

ViolentPanda probably read the source books which the author of the Da Vinci Code used as reference

You're right.

I went through a phase a couple of decades back when I spent nearly a year in hospital, of reading alot of stuff about the Albigensians, the Templars etc, so it appears that I have read about 90% of the material Dan Brown is purported to have cribbed from.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You mean the books he copied off?!

Anyway, the Da Vinci Code has sold more copies now than the Bible and the only reason slag it off is cos they think it makes them look cool!!!

Does that mean that if I slag off the Torah, the Qu'ran or the Bible that I'm only doing it to look cool?

TBH, imho if the Da Vinci code is as badly written as is claimed, then it should be slagged off, even if it contains a "divine revelation".

 

[CyberRose]

Does that mean that if I slag off the Torah, the Qu'ran or the Bible that I'm only doing it to look cool?

No cos they aren't cool in the first place for the reverse-psycology-coolness to have an effect! You might want to compare it to slagging off people who use Lonely Planet travel guides

TBH, imho if the Da Vinci code is as badly written as is claimed, then it should be slagged off, even if it contains a "divine revelation".

Gonna have to get down to the library aren't ya!?

 

[ViolentPanda]

No cos they aren't cool in the first place for the reverse-psycology-coolness to have an effect! You might want to compare it to slagging off people who use Lonely Planet travel guides

I've never been able to work out why people buy any travel guide. I used to prefer to just turn up somewhere and dive in head first, so to speak.

Gonna have to get down to the library aren't ya!?

If it's as badly written as people claim I should be able to find a copy in a charity shop for about 50p any time now!

 

[rachamim18]

Replies...

Tan gent: "My sources are primarily religious..." Nope, David and Solomon did rule in Jerusalem and this has been proved over and over by archaeology, not to mention the historical record of other cultures from the area.

"Talk about going off on tangents..." What? So what if the Egyptians had a military garrson in the sands outside Tel Aviv? The Jews had garrisions as far afeild as Ethiopia and Sudan. It just proves that in one period the Egyptians held dominion over the region. I never claimed anything to the opposite. the fact remains, the Jews have an unbroken connection and presence in the land...regrdless of a foreign garrison.

"Cyrus brought back only 5% of the Jews..." What? I do not know where you are getting your figures from but all it shows, even if it were aosmehow converted into fact, is that the Jews must have ahd a huge population! After they were able to return it would only mean that they must have had a huge population. 5% of the population is able to reform and sustain a kingdom? Your "facts" are all wrong. I would be interested to see where you got them, "Israel Shamir" perhaps?

"Israel still exists and also as a people, regardless of location..." Yep, exactly my position!

"Near East History has always fascinated Tangent..." nothing wrong with that , far be it from me to try and deny you your pleasures bu I have to beg, at least get your facts straight.

"Finkelstein, et al..." I have long said the same. Still, the historical record does support that the Jews have had an ancient and continuous presence on the land.

Energy: I am sorry that you think it is "like 2 kids arguing over daddy." Perhaps if it was your hjomeland, or your childrens', you might think a bit differently. there is nothing wrong with intelligent discourse. Different points of view are what makes life great. the problem as I see it is when people leave civility by the wayside and resort to sticks ands stones. Still, even when that does happen, it does not subtract from the relevancy of facts.

As for the need to be degreed and certified in a field before offering one's take on a paticular situation, are you a geogrpaher or geopolitical scientist by chance? If not, you seem to be a bit hypocritical. While I definitely take issue with Tangent's version of the "facts" I fully support his/her right to express them as long as he/she maintains a modicum of decorum...

I see you list MIT. If you do not mind, when were you there? It is not to try and disprove you or anything but I have a couple of relatives connected with the institution and was wondering if you might have met them...For the record, both are named Dweck.

You are correct about the climate not being conducive to the preservation of artifacts. In fcat, the majoirty of the Scrools preserved [the Qumran Scrolls that is] were on copper or clay. Papyrus did not hold up. Luckily for us alot of the ancient cultures of the area used clay or stone...although unfortunately for me not the Jews.

Panda: What is wrong with doing grad work elsewhere?

 

[rachamim18]

Part 2...

Rasin: "Israel as the last example of colonialism in the region." Actually, all the 23 nations of the Mid -East are clonial outposts in that none of them were formed independantly. All had the helping hand of a Western Power. in fact, as I have often said, of all the nations, only Israel posses the historical right to exist there! Histocial imperative aside, should all 23 nations be dissolved because they had the backing of the West? Would you select Israel to go first or should it be perhaps Egypt? Iraq? Syria? Lebanon? Your post reeks of hypocrsiy.

"Israel's warheads threatn its Arab neighbours..." Right...because Israel has NEVER iniated a single conflict in its entire war strewn history! Even "Operation Peace for Gaillile" was by invitation of that nation's sovereign government! Israel maintains its arsenal strictly for defensive purposes and well it should. How many of its "threatened" neighbours still exist in a state of declared war with Israel? How many have acted in a agressive manner towards Israel? How many continue to employ bombastic rhetoric on a week in week out basis against Israel?

"Israel desires more land and more resources..." right...Why has it NOT moved to annex the "Territories?" Why has it not employed its massive arsenal in a move to obtain a share of the region's petroleum riches? Even as the Western Pwoers continue to maneuver for thse resources Israel simply concerns itself with its own peace and security.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: What is wrong with doing grad work elsewhere?

Absolutely nothing.

Go back and read what I wrote again, Rachamim. That way you'll see that what I said was that I have more respect for someone who goes to a different institution than their alma mater for their postgrad work than people who stay at the same institution.
Oxford, energy-releases' alma mater, had (and may still do) a practice of awarding masters' degrees to students who merely completed an extra year of college residency and paid a requisite sum. Energy releases' postgrad at MIT shows that he/she didn't take the easy route, so kudos to him/her.

 

[moono]

because Israel has NEVER iniated a single conflict in its entire war strewn history!

Initiating the 1948 war was the very first thing Israel did in its history.

 

[p-j]

Tan gent: "My sources are primarily religious..." Nope, David and Solomon did rule in Jerusalem and this has been proved over and over by archaeology, not to mention the historical record of other cultures from the area.

Over and over? There is very little contemporary evidence for these kings. There are a total of two* inscriptions that attest to David (the Tel Dan inscription and the moabite stone). There are none so far as I know that mention Solomon.

Records from other cultures? Which ones? There's patchy corroboration of other, later kings of Israel & Judah in various sources, but not of David and Solomon.

*unless something's been discovered in the last few years, I've been out of the field for a while...

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: Sorry, my mistake. I would tend to agree although my decision to do so [grad work that is] was not by choice.

Moono: What? Israel did not declare war, several Arab nations did however! The Arabs announced it as soon as the Brits lowered their flag. Would you like a reading list [seriously]?

PJ: I would be glad to expound on the subject even though I am not degreed in Biblical Archaeology [sic] but have precious little time right now. I will be sure to get to it the next time I post though, as it is a subject I find dear to my heart.

 

[moono]

Moono: What? Israel did not declare war, several Arab nations did however! The Arabs announced it as soon as the Brits lowered their flag. Would you like a reading list [seriously]?

Wrong. The Arabs thumped a lot of tubs and made warlike noises but the first large-scale and organised violence was the Israeli slaughter of Arab villages. THEN the Arab League got involved.

 

[CyberRose]

I've never been able to work out why people buy any travel guide. I used to prefer to just turn up somewhere and dive in head first, so to speak.

Wow you're even more like DiCaprio out of the Beach than I gave you credit for!!

 

[CyberRose]

Absolutely nothing.

Go back and read what I wrote again, Rachamim. That way you'll see that what I said was that I have more respect for someone who goes to a different institution than their alma mater for their postgrad work than people who stay at the same institution.

Cool! But I went to a different one cos I didn't get into a good one the first time round!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wow you're even more like DiCaprio out of the Beach than I gave you credit for!!

I'm nothing like DiCaprio (or rather, given how much younger he is, he's nothing like me!), I just always preferred to save my money for local hootch and culture.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: Try and read a couple of non-partisan sites and see if you still feel the same. there are plenty of non-Israeli and non-Arab histories that you might try and take a gander at. Your version has no basis in reality.

 

[moono]

Your version has no basis in reality.

All you really need to glean the historical truth is events and the dates of those events. When I see the dates of Israeli massacres of Palestinian villages and then I see that The Arab League entered the conflict weeks later I don't need any narratives, non-partisan or otherwise, to sift the facts.

A war starts with large-scale and organised violence and there is no doubt that the Israelis were first to launch it. I congratulate you, however, for the remarkably efficient propaganda machine that has fooled the world, for nigh on sixty years, into believing that Israel was the victim of Arab aggression.
Well done.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Rasin: "Israel as the last example of colonialism in the region." Actually, all the 23 nations of the Mid -East are clonial outposts in that none of them were formed independantly. All had the helping hand of a Western Power. in fact, as I have often said, of all the nations, only Israel posses the historical right to exist there! Histocial imperative aside, should all 23 nations be dissolved because they had the backing of the West? Would you select Israel to go first or should it be perhaps Egypt? Iraq? Syria? Lebanon? Your post reeks of hypocrsiy.

"Israel's warheads threatn its Arab neighbours..." Right...because Israel has NEVER iniated a single conflict in its entire war strewn history! Even "Operation Peace for Gaillile" was by invitation of that nation's sovereign government! Israel maintains its arsenal strictly for defensive purposes and well it should. How many of its "threatened" neighbours still exist in a state of declared war with Israel? How many have acted in a agressive manner towards Israel? How many continue to employ bombastic rhetoric on a week in week out basis against Israel?

"Israel desires more land and more resources..." right...Why has it NOT moved to annex the "Territories?" Why has it not employed its massive arsenal in a move to obtain a share of the region's petroleum riches? Even as the Western Pwoers continue to maneuver for thse resources Israel simply concerns itself with its own peace and security.

You are such a loveable clown! Hehe! Israel has never posed a threat to its neighbours. No. Never. It is comments like this that make me wonder why I love you so much! Let's forget colonialism, occupation and the fact that for every Israeli that is killed, 5 Palestinians die. It is tragic. While the territory that Israel "owns" is now close to 90% of what Palestinians were is possession of when the zionists turned up at the turn of the century. And all that is driving that is some ancient claim, like I have some ancient claim to your apartment in NY. So those who live now suffer because you who live in NY can up and move back to the holy land, while those who were driven out in liviing memory can never return to the 11% of their historical land.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: First off, aside from Dier Yassin, there was ntohing even remotely resembling a "massacarre of an Arab village." However, there were repeated examples of Arabs doing just that to Jewish villages and farms...too numerous to list here. Secondly: The communal violence that led up to Independance did not begin in 47 or 48. It bagan in 1920, the first year in which any side slaughtered anyone. Arabs slaughtered all the inhabitants of two Jewish viallges in the north. From there, Arab violence continued until 1936 without a single Jeiwhs retaliation! If you want to track the root of the problem, you cannot pick and choose years and events. the situation must be examined in its totality and measured bit by bit. I thought I asked you to excamine what some non - partisan sites had to say about it. What happened?

Then, in 48, as the Brits lowered their flag and packed the last of their things, the Arabs united behind the flag of the Arab Legion and attacked en masse. It was the Arabs who iniated the long run of communal violence. It was the Arabs who kept it up even without a single Jewish retaliation for 15 odd years! Fianlly, it was the Arabs who refused statehood, joined with the invading Arab armies, and attacked Israelk on its first day of Independance!


"Propaganda machine that has fooled the world for going on 60 years..." Right...everybody is just "fooled." Except of course, those highly intelligent activists who lap up those twisted Arab lies like starving chiuahahas. Do you actually believe that the majoirty of the world, including many of those same Arab nations that were involved, have been duped by wily Jews? Please...try and at least come up with another, more plausible tact.

Raisin: When has Israel EVER posed a threat to its neighbours? Better yet: When has Israel ever iniated a war [remember, Leb. was by invitation of its sovereign govt.]?

A disparity in death rates means nothing Raisin. Might equals evil in your book?

"Owning 90% of the land." What does Jordan own? Hmmm...how much of the land DID the "Palestinians" actually own? Almost all of the land was held in deed by absentee Turkish landl-rds so that local Arabs rarely owned a single drachma! Add to this the established fact that Zionists BOUGHT all the land they settled! Also add to the story the fact that the local Arabs were offered the vast majority of arable land if they would only agree IN PRINCIPLE to peaceful coexistence with their Jewish neighbours. Of course this was too much for them to agree to!

"Claim to my NYC apartment..." I live in a project, you can have it. I will even throw in the roaches and rats feee of charge...along with the heroin and crack dealing in the lobby, despite the police precinct on the other side of the lobby! Please... I have stated over and over that were some Native Americans to lay claim to property I owned here in the States, I would, after ascertaining the validity of their claim, apply for the proper and just compensation afforded me - just like the "Palestinians" may do!

"So people like me can move from NYC to Israel..." First, my father's family has lived within 40 miles of Jerusalem at all times, since recorded history began. Second, even if they not been from the region, all Jews [outside of converts] are directly descended from the same Jews that filled over 950 villages in the "West Bank" alone at the time of the Roman Conquest! It is not as if a person who is 1/10th of some ethnicity is now pushing land claims through vourt in hopes of a windfall. It is that a people, like any other people,desires a home of their own. in this case, the people seek to return to the land of their forefathers. their presence can be seen and felt throughout the land. From religious mosaics dug up in Ceasaria, to hilltop fortifications where ancestors waged heroic battles, to "West Bank" hills where other ancestors rose up and reestablished the ancient Jewish kingdom. the land is rich in artifacts and underneath any settlement, there is a trove of Jewish artifacts. attesting to this unbroken connection.

Addtionally, at no time during the last 3,800 plus years has the land EVER been totally devoid of Jewish inhabitants. At no time during this long and epic history have the Jews ever voluntarily given up their land, either throough sale or abandonment. The mass exodus that did occurr was the result of an ethnic cleansing, the same crime now attributed to them by naive and unknowing Westerners.

Even through all this, the returning Jews still had retained their moral foundation and agreed to share the land with the Arabs who had settled in their stead, mostly during the preceeding 350 years. It was the Arabs who inexplicably refused any suggestions of such peaceful cohabitacion!

"11% of the historcial land!" Yep, take it up with the Hussein family of Jordan.

 

[moono]

Please...try and at least come up with another, more plausible tact.

Dates and events, rachamim, dates and events.

http://www.passportpalestine.com/villages/village2.htm

Lifta In the years leading up to the 1948 war, however, the village fell under attack by Jewish militias operating in the area. On the 28th of December, 1947 six people were gunned down in the village coffeehouse, by members of two Jewish militias, the Stern Gang (whose commander, Yitzhak Shamir, later became Prime Minister of Israel) and the Irgun (whose commander, Menachem Begin, also later served as Prime Minister of Israel)

Tantura In its occupation, depopulation, subsequent destruction, and seizure of all its lands by Israel, the fate of Tantura was similar to that of more than 400 other Palestinian villages during the 1948 war. But it also shared with some two score of these villages the additional agony of a large-scale massacre of its inhabitants.

Bir Adas (Adris) 144,177 34, 56.28 32, 12 Jaffa District, W of Qalqilya Arab village destroyed by Israel in 1948. In 1944, it had a pop.: of 300 and a land area of 5,492 dunums. Primarily citrus and banana crops. It's capture was reported on March 6, 1948, nearly 10 weeks before the Arabs are said to have `started' the war on May 15, 1948. The inhabitants were evicted and the homes were later raized.

Biyar 'Adas 145,174 34, 56 32, 10 Jaffa District Arab village brutally attacked by Haganah, captured and destroyed on March 5, 1948. The inhabitants were evicted.

Deir Yasin 168,131 35,11.43 31,47 Jerusalem District Arab village destroyed by Israeli. Site of April 9, 1948 massacre of 100 to 250 Arabs by Menachem Begin's Irgun terrorists. The villagers were paraded through the streets of Jerusalem after the attack and evicted from their homes. Today, part of the land was resettled as Kibbutz Giv`at Shaul Bet, while other parts are used by various Israeli industries. The abandoned homes are used by a nearby sanitorium. Ironically, the Israeli memorial shrine to the Holocaust victims is built on a part of the former lands of Deir Yassin.

Abu Kebir 135, 163 34, 50 32, 4 Jaffa District Arab village captured and destroyed by Haganah on March 31, 1948. The location is approximate. Hebron 160,104 35,6 31,32 36 km S of Jerusalem One of oldest continuously inhabited cities in Palestine, mostly Arab, Pop.: 39,000. Captured by Israel in 1967. Also known as El Khalil and Kirjath Arba. Extremist Jewish settlers established a large settlement in the heart of the city called Kiryat Arba on lands taken from Palestinians. The settlers have been involved in numerous terrorist attacks against Palestinian civilians. Israel has barracaded the settlement and divided the Arab population with a large contingent of Israeli soldiers who continuously occupy the site. In February 1994, a Jewish settler, Dr. Baruch Goldstein, gunned down 29 Muslims who were praying at the Hebron Mosque as other Israeli soldiers watched. The massacre provoked the very first suicide bombing two months later.

Nasr ed-Din 202 240 35 33.02 32 45 Tiberias District Arab village destroyed by Israel in 1948. The village was attacked by the Irgun terror organization five days after the massacre at Deir Yassin. On "April 14, one month before the Arab armies allegedly began the war by" "attacking, the Irgun massacred several hundred of its civilian inhabitants." "All but 40 women and children survived, and were evicted."

Qazaza 140 130 34 53.8 31 46 Ramla District Arab village destroyed by Israel. One of the first villages attacked by "the invading Zionist armies, on Dec. 21, 1947, long before the so-called" "Arab attack on May 15, 1948. Its inhabitants were evicted and the village" has since been raized.

Salama 133 161 34 49 32 3 Jaffa District Arab village destroyed by Israel after its capture on April 29, 1948, before the May 14, 1948 end of the Mandate & creation of the Zionist state.

Sa'sa' 188 271 35 24 33 3 Safad District Arab village brutally attacked by Haganah Feb. 14, 1948. The Haganah blew up 14 homes killing 11 Arab civilians there. It was captured and later destroyed, and resettled in 1949 as a Zionist Kibbutz of the same name, Sa'sa'.

Tira was brutally attacked by the Irgun terrorists on Dec. 13, 1947 and 35 Arab civilians were murdered.

All these atrocities took place after Resolution 181 and before the Arab League entered the conflict. The Arabs didn't start the war at all.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why is everyone such an expert about Israel

perhaps because when i did my gcses, we had to study the arab-israeli conflict. i imagine people are still required to study that for their history.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: AGAIN: PARTISAN SITE! I guess you did not see "PAssportPalestine" in the heading, right? For every example you have just offered I can provide an alternative version. Try and round up a mainstream and unaffiliated source that claims the same thing.

ALSO: When will it sink in that you cannot isolate a period during the communal violence and seek to lay blame? Since the violence has been without cessation since its beginning, you have to examine the timeline and incident record in its totality. Start at 1919 and work your way up, see if you can still claim the same.

 

[CyberRose]

perhaps because when i did my gcses, we had to study the arab-israeli conflict. i imagine people are still required to study that for their history.

Not me. I did modern world history at GCSE (which made me do History at A-Level which was crap cos it was the French revolution, German/Italian unification and Britain) I dont actually think we did anything on Israel-Arab wars. We studied the first and second world wars. For our exam we did the Vietnam war. We did a bit on the Cold war too.

I guess with history (and politics) there are areas that you can concentrate on over another area (like in English there are several books that you can do the literature exam on...if you were clever enough to be selected to do English literature at GCSE!!) so maybe we did something instead of Israel-Arab that you didn't do?

Either way I dont really think thats why people are "an expert" on Israel I think it has more to do with the publicity the conflict recieves and its percieved relationship to international affairs. There is also the fact that it is a great conflict for taking sides over depending on your political beliefs


<edited to add - I assumed you were too old to remember GCSEs?!>

 

[moono]

r;

ALSO: When will it sink in that you cannot isolate a period during the communal violence and seek to lay blame? Since the violence has been without cessation since its beginning, you have to examine the timeline and incident record in its totality. Start at 1919 and work your way up, see if you can still claim the same.

No. I am mainly concerned with events since the creation of the United Nations, the organisation devised to prevent war. Prior to that, war was 'romantic'. The UN provides a set of rules by which members agree to abide. Pre-UN events leave too much wriggle-room.
Israel owes its existence to the UN, the Palestinians owe their troubles to it. The UN created the problem and the UN must find the solutions.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: What about the L. of Nations...What was its purpose? Furthermore, whether - or - not the UN was created to fart in the wind, the communal violence was not rooted in its creation. The Arabs began their campaign in 1920. the Jews joined in the late 30s. The UN was founded post WWII, so what? It did not matter.

The Arabs do not owe the UN anything or need to place any blame on it. The Arabs were offered the first Partition in 1919, long before the UN was around. The fault for their misery lies with them and their leaders. Had they accepted at least the premise of negotiation, Jordan would have not been able to steal the bulk of their nation!

[Edited to add the 2nd paragraph]

 

[moono]

You keep overlooking modern international law. All prior treaties and agreements are addressed through the UN, Israel was created through the UN, almost all of the world's States are members of the UN, international security is guaranteed by the UN and all current international law is overseen by the UN. States accept those facts and conditions when they apply for membership. Your premises might apply to Israel if Israel were not a UN member.