Why I don't get the train.

[teuchter]

You think the cops are going to give a fuck about some jobsworth?

If you smacked them in the jaw, then yes, maybe, but if you maintain absolute calm and professionalism and explain to them that you will not be entering into the appeals system because of their faulty machines, they're going to be reluctant to make themselves look like timewasting cunts in front of the police.

Try it!

OK, I reread your post and if you're just suggesting this approach where there is a faulty machine, or you are pretending there is a faulty machine, then yes.

Not if the ticket office was open though - in that case it's an arrestable offence.


As for condoning fare dodging - which you probably just put there to provoke a response - given that most rail franchises are subsidised, we all pay for it in the long term.

 

[berniedicters]

At some stations and at some times this may be true. At others and at other times it isn't. Either way, given that serving one customer with a query can easily take a couple of minutes, anybody who think five minutes an inordinate amount of time strikes me as being over-optimistic.

And if your time's that precious, buy in advance.

Not to have a pop at your or anything, Donna, but what you describe here seems to be what it boils down to: we have a rail system which seems, in so many ways, to mitigate against "turn up and go" travel. If it's not ticket office/machine availability, it's service frequency. If it's not those, it's the fare structure.

Someone - pk? - talked about "arbitrary obstacles", and I think he's right on the money there: there are all kinds of ways they could make it easier to turn up and go, and they don't use them. Most of us ARE honest, and will - not necessarily happily - pay the fare. And it rankles to be treated as dishonest, and pushed into a kafkaesque penalty fares system that seems to go out of its way to make it hard to appeal - so what's that about?

It's the same if you try to claim because a train is late or didn't turn up - it's a nightmare. Then you go to buy an advance ticket, and that process has become hideously complicated. It is Kafkaesque. There has to be a better way than this...because I think it should be possible to bowl up at a station 2 minutes before the train's due, get a ticket if there's time, and if there's not, get one on the train, etc. Not have to pay through the nose for walk-up fares (if there's someone to sell you one) or pay again through the nose for a penalty fare because you didn't jump through exactly the right hoops in exactly the right order.

We're always on about moving to public transport rather than driving around in cars. Well, then, let's make it easier to do that, not harder.

 

[teuchter]

Not to have a pop at your or anything, Donna, but what you describe here seems to be what it boils down to: we have a rail system which seems, in so many ways, to mitigate against "turn up and go" travel. If it's not ticket office/machine availability, it's service frequency. If it's not those, it's the fare structure.

Someone - pk? - talked about "arbitrary obstacles", and I think he's right on the money there: there are all kinds of ways they could make it easier to turn up and go, and they don't use them. Most of us ARE honest, and will - not necessarily happily - pay the fare. And it rankles to be treated as dishonest, and pushed into a kafkaesque penalty fares system that seems to go out of its way to make it hard to appeal - so what's that about?

It's the same if you try to claim because a train is late or didn't turn up - it's a nightmare. Then you go to buy an advance ticket, and that process has become hideously complicated. It is Kafkaesque. There has to be a better way than this...because I think it should be possible to bowl up at a station 2 minutes before the train's due, get a ticket if there's time, and if there's not, get one on the train, etc. Not have to pay through the nose for walk-up fares (if there's someone to sell you one) or pay again through the nose for a penalty fare because you didn't jump through exactly the right hoops in exactly the right order.

We're always on about moving to public transport rather than driving around in cars. Well, then, let's make it easier to do that, not harder.

I agree with most of this, particularly the principle that we should have a "turn up and go" railway.

I was in Germany recently and in some of the newer trains they have ticket machines actually on the train. Which would be nice to see here as well.

Also they have a system where you can buy tickets via your phone and then show a code rather than a paper ticket. As ever they are a good few steps ahead of us.

 

[Gromit]

For once I feel lucky. Arriva trains Wales often has full trains and the guards can't always get around to give you a ticket.

Instead they have people who will sell you a ticket at your destination if you are getting off in the city centre. Sometime if the queue for them is so big they'll just open the barriers and tell you to go and buy your ticket on the return journey. Never any mention of penalty fares unless you are approached on the train itself and refuse to pay or refuse to pay at the other end.

 

[kabbes]

That can't be right. What if the ticket you want isn't available from the ticket machine?

Tough! You either have to travel without the ticket and prove that it wasn't available, hoping to be able to reclaim any fine they hit you with or you have to buy a ticket to a station where you will be able to buy the ticket that you want.

Don't tell me it's shit. I know it's shit. We're way too behind the tech curve to actually be replacing people with machines like this, but they're doing it anyway because machines are cheap.

 

[berniedicters]

For once I feel lucky. Arriva trains Wales often has full trains and the guards can't always get around to give you a ticket.

Instead they have people who will sell you a ticket at your destination if you are getting off in the city centre. Sometime if the queue for them is so big they'll just open the barriers and tell you to go and buy your ticket on the return journey. Never any mention of penalty fares unless you are approached on the train itself and refuse to pay or refuse to pay at the other end.

Yes, there's no doubt that it's a different kind of service out here in Wales. Admittedly, they can hardly complain about people not having tickets, since so many of the stations are unstaffed, but I've never seen a penalty faire being issued, even around Swansea where lots of stations are staffed. I once saw a guard saying "never mind, have this one free but bring enough money next time" because two kids on the train didn't have enough money for both of their fares!

It's a shame that any significant journey usually involves going from the friendly, (mostly) helpful ATW service onto FGW, where although the staff are often trying their best to be helpful, it's within a system that buys into all that is most draconian and arbitrary of what we're talking about here. I think FGW might be the only company where commuters held a "fare strike" to protest at some of their practices.

 

[Bungle73]

Also they have a system where you can buy tickets via your phone and then show a code rather than a paper ticket. As ever they are a good few steps ahead of us.

I believe Chiltern Railways have/had such a service. I can't find any mention of it on their website now though.

 

[Jazzz]

A penalty notice is a punishment though, isn't it? There's an assumption that you were trying to dodge the fare. By presenting yourself at the "fares to pay" window you are, quite clearly, not trying to do this.

Not necessarily. Especially if there's a gang of revenue protection officers and police waiting by the exits.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Aaaannnnddddd while we're here....

I spend £180 of my hard earned each month on a train pass with Southwest Twunks to get me to Waterloo each day. Should I forget my pass I can buy a new ticket just for that day and send it off with proof of my monthly for a refund. All good.

Should I discover that I have forgotten my pass once I arrive at Waterloo, it's a £20 penalty and you can't send this off for a refund.

WTF is that all about?

 

[SpookyFrank]

My understanding was that if you refuse to agree to the penalty fare, they are within their rights to call the police and get you arrested under the railway bye-laws or something like that.

Just as you are entirely within your rights to leg it

 

[Gromit]

At Victoria I roll up to the "fares to pay" window and am approached by a young lady.

The more I think about it I would have been tempted to have handled it this way.

Keep saying to the girl hang on I'll speak to you in just a minute. Hang on I can't speak to you just yet. I'm not running off, just give me a minute.

Buy your ticket and then say okay what did you want?
I am in possession of a valid ticket for travel. Look here it is.

 

[kabbes]

I'm pretty sure that the time the ticket was issued is printed on the ticket.

 

[Gromit]

I'm pretty sure that the time the ticket was issued is printed on the ticket.

It is. But they are still in possession of a valid ticket at time of asking and during their period of travel (of which they were halfway through if I read the post correctly).

 

[kabbes]

It is. But they are still in possession of a valid ticket at time of asking and during their period of travel (of which they were halfway through if I read the post correctly).

But clearly not when they boarded the train.

 

[agricola]

I believe Chiltern Railways have/had such a service. I can't find any mention of it on their website now though.

They do, as do the excellent Wrexham and Shropshire (who also have a "turn up and buy on the train" policy).

Other operators may not especially want it though as current technology means that a human guard has to scan the image on the phone, rather than the passenger swiping it through an automated ticket-reader.

 

[sim667]

Im a bit confused as to why you gave them your details......

just make some up.

 

[mincepie]

I went from Kings Cross to a local station in the Bradford area.

Kings Cross - Bought ticket in advance, some issue/delay with Central line, miss planned train, National Express lady forces me to buy a new ticket full price, £70 -young person rail card- because mine is for the wrong train. Grrr. I'm not a fraudster, I did go to the effort to buy a ticket, doesn’t that count for anything

At the other end of the journey, in Yorkshire, you can buy the ticket on the local train from the guard, with a little hand held computer 'thingy' No questions asked, and it was only £3 or so, down South that'd be £20 for sure.
At Leeds station they have a 'little window' where you can buy the ticket, when you get off, if you missed the man on the train.

How much simpler and friendlier it all is.

 

[teuchter]

They do, as do the excellent Wrexham and Shropshire (who also have a "turn up and buy on the train" policy).

Other operators may not especially want it though as current technology means that a human guard has to scan the image on the phone, rather than the passenger swiping it through an automated ticket-reader.

I didn't know they were doing this already. Probably no coincidence that they are both part owned by DB.

 

[Wolveryeti]

If you do decide to pay, send them a cheque in the same vein as this:

 

[ViolentPanda]

It has never been a problem before. But then the ticket office has never been shut before.

When I used to regularly commute out of Clapham Junction station in the mid-eighties, catching a fairly early (05.40AM) train, I always assumed the worst, because the ticket office was hardly ever open, and the ticket machines usually hadn't been repaired from the vandalism of the previous night.
Then again, there were far fewer inspectors, and the "excess fares" booth were a lot more customer-friendly back when BR was in charge. Nowadays (as others have said), it's all about penalty fares being a "revenue stream" to take advantage of.

 

[mincepie]

Hopefully the slow but sure roll out of "oyster-ism" will solve some of this nonsense.
It won't solve train fares being overpriced, or missing the booked train (like I did), and I suspect the oddness in price variations/structures that seem to in place will still exist, but it's a start.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are two species of official now – guard/ticket office person who is usually friendly and helpful and will always sell you a ticket; and the sinister Revenue Protection Officer (officer? they're like a quasi-police force). There is no reasoning with the second species, whose automatic position is that you are a good-for-nothing fare dodger.

Does anyone know whether this second species is paid partly on commission? It would explain a lot if they were.

I would like to punch whoever came up with that job title. It's purposely designed to be hostile and dehumanising.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

it's all about penalty fares being a "revenue stream" to take advantage of.

I fucking hate that neologism too – maximising fucking revenue streams. Not providing a service efficiently. Yet again, it is an example of language as a dehumanising force, extracting the human content of an activity leaving just a figure on a balance sheet to show that it has been performed.

 

[Crispy]

The national travel smartcard - ITSO - is smothered in bearaucracy and inertia and will, IMO, not see the light of day under the current railway system. Far too many chefs.

 

[pk]

There are two species of official now – guard/ticket office person who is usually friendly and helpful and will always sell you a ticket; and the sinister Revenue Protection Officer (officer? they're like a quasi-police force). There is no reasoning with the second species, whose automatic position is that you are a good-for-nothing fare dodger.

Treat them with the fucking contempt that they treat their customers - who in days gone by "were always right".

Does anyone know whether this second species is paid partly on commission? It would explain a lot if they were.

Varies between 0% to 5%, even 10% on a Sunday which is why there are loads of the fuckers about the morning after the night before.
Depends on the franchise you're riding on.

 

[teuchter]

Treat them with the fucking contempt that they treat their customers - who in days gone by "were always right"

The reason they exist is because of those "customers" who customarily and deliberately fare-dodge, even when they can well afford to pay. They deserve some contempt too, surely.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The reason they exist is because of those "customers" who customarily and deliberately fare-dodge, even when they can well afford to pay. They deserve some contempt too, surely.

That's not the reason they exist in the form they exist in though. The reason for that is partly that they are paid on commission. As with traffic wardens, paying those responsible for handing out fines in this way is totally out of order and eliminates common sense and flexibility from the proceedings.

Better that 100 should be fined incorrectly than that one should escape a fine incorrectly. This kind of attitude is going to breed fare dodgers.

 

[teuchter]

That's not the reason they exist in the form they exist in though. The reason for that is partly that they are paid on commission. As with traffic wardens, paying those responsible for handing out fines in this way is totally out of order and eliminates common sense and flexibility from the proceedings.

Better that 100 should be fined incorrectly than that one should escape a fine incorrectly. This kind of attitude is going to breed fare dodgers.

Yes, I do agree that paying them on commission is out of order. Can't argue with that.

 

[Idaho]

The national travel smartcard - ITSO - is smothered in bearaucracy and inertia and will, IMO, not see the light of day under the current railway system. Far too many chefs.

You think they should move money out of catering and put it elsewhere in the organisation?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

You think they should move money out of catering and put it elsewhere in the organisation?