Why I don't get the train.

[tommers]

But even if it were open, could you necessarily expect to be served within five minutes?

I think so, considering that that has happened every other time I have used the station.

I wouldn't have done it if I had known what their policy was. I thought, bizarrely, that you could use the "fares to pay" window if, you know, you had fares to pay. If I had known that I would be landed with a £20 fine then I would have waited for the next train and been late for work. There you go, that's my lack of knowledge I suppose.

A penalty notice is a punishment though, isn't it? There's an assumption that you were trying to dodge the fare. By presenting yourself at the "fares to pay" window you are, quite clearly, not trying to do this.

 

[WWWeed]

I tend to put the onus on them if they try and charge me a penalty fare. Say that I haven't got any money and give them my address (quite happy to give my real one too). They can jump through legal hoops to get it, rather than me jumping through their hoops to get a refund. Out of three occasions I haven't ever been contacted.

I wouldn't recommend this as the train operators have been known to get arrest warrants issued by the BTP that you wont anything about about! (yes BTP deal with penalty fare arrests)

They wont contact you, just next time a BTP officer runs your name through the radio it will come up and you might end up getting nicked. I've seen it happen a few times in a few different stations

You are however right about not paying on the spot as this was a mistake I made! Take it up with the website I posted & the independent penalty fares appeal service instead and then if they both say you have to pay up, then ur gonna have to pay up.

A penalty notice is a punishment though, isn't it? There's an assumption that you were trying to dodge the fare. By presenting yourself at the "fares to pay" window you are, quite clearly, not trying to do this.

your on dodgy ground but I wouldn't be surprised if you got it revoked because of this!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

A penalty notice is a punishment though, isn't it? There's an assumption that you were trying to dodge the fare. By presenting yourself at the "fares to pay" window you are, quite clearly, not trying to do this.

Yes, I think that's objectionable.

I think they'd argue that it's a reasonable expectation that you can't get served straight away. In a sense I think they're right although it'd be interesting to see them put a figure on that. Personally I always allow bizarre amounts of time whenever I can - but even then, you can't guarantee it (if for instance you're travelling to the station on a bus and the bus doesn't turn up).

I think that is you presented yourself at the window subsequently, and if their office wasn't open when it was supposed to be, then they really need to refund your twenty quid. I can't entirely blame them for taking it in the first place, and I don't think the member of staff should really be asked what your chances are (I mean what's she supposed to say?) but that latter is a minor issue and the former shouldn't be an excuse to keep your money just because they've got it.

Incidentally I'm currently in a situation where I'm trying to get forty euros back off an airport that introduced parking fees in a car park that was previously free, and then didn't put up any visible signs to say so....

 

[Bungle73]

I think so, considering that that has happened every other time I have used the station.

You've just been lucky. You should leave a reasonable amount of time for any unforeseen eventuality.

 

[teuchter]

A penalty notice is a punishment though, isn't it? There's an assumption that you were trying to dodge the fare. By presenting yourself at the "fares to pay" window you are, quite clearly, not trying to do this.

Well, I guess they could argue that you could show up and claim you had travelled from some station in zone 1 when in actual fact you'd travelled from Brighton or something like that.

That's the idea of the "permit to travel" system (which like I say is - I think -what the "fares to pay" window is for) - if you get a permit to travel it'll have a time and location printed on it.

 

[tommers]

I don't think the member of staff should really be asked what your chances are (I mean what's she supposed to say?)

I didn't ask her. She offered her own opinion (presumably in order to persuade me to part with my card rather than causing more of a fuss.)

 

[tommers]

You've just been lucky. You should leave a reasonable amount of time for any unforeseen eventuality.

Ok then. I'll bear that in mind in the future. Thanks!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Well, I guess they could argue that you could show up and claim you had travelled from some station in zone 1 when in actual fact you'd travelled from Brighton or something like that.

That's the idea of the "permit to travel" system (which like I say is - I think -what the "fares to pay" window is for) - if you get a permit to travel it'll have a time and location printed on it.

I didn't even know they existed, and I must have been buying railway tickets for thirty years...

 

[Bungle73]

I didn't even know they existed, and I must have been buying railway tickets for thirty years...

Surely you must have seen one of these at stations?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Not knowingly, though I suppose they must have passed in front of my eyes....

 

[Ted Striker]

No, but five minutes is not an extraordinary amount of time.

No, but it all adds up, and let's face it, I'll stick my neck out and say that yes, my time is that precious that I shouldn't have to expect to factor in unnecessary waiting times on the chance the station operator isn't performing it's service to an acceptable standard.

I don't deem a closed window during peak hours acceptable.

Plus there's no accounting for the queues you get on some mornings!

 

[GoneCoastal]

Remember that permits to travel also have a time limit on them. You're supposed to present them to the guard on the train or exchange for a proper ticket within two hours (according to the notice on the ones at my local station (Southern Trains)

 

[sim667]

Apparently you can buy permits to travel for £1 but they only have machines at certain stations

I'd never heard of them myself until recently when a friend told me

You can buy them for any amount of money...... you just have to have a coin to put into the machine.

 

[pk]

OK ready??

Rule No.1 - never ever offer a card for penalty fare payment. Don't give the cunts your I.D.

Rule No.2 - always carry the cash needed for the journey, and a £20 note usually covers this. Hide loose change, the note is the key.

If the ticket office is closed - you don't buy a ticket. Ever.

Even if there are 50 machines - you don't buy a ticket.

When you get to your destination or get collared on the train, simply explain to them that their ticket machine would not accept your £20 note.
Crumple it up a bit in your pocket, that will convince the inspector that it is unreadable.

They have no choice but to charge the payable fare, as it is their machines at fault.

If they're being wankers, and you have the time and energy, simply and politely explain to them that you don't wish to argue, that you will be paying only for the fare due and under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you EVER sign a Penalty Fares form.

Mark it with an "X" if they are demanding a signature, the RPO will then write "refused to sign" on the form, and it will be binned.

By signing the form you're agreeing that you are at fault.

Of course, if nobody challenges you, you get away with a free journey.
And on some routes, you might be saving yourself £50 to £100 a week.

So even if you do get collared bang to rights, the odd £20 fine is not a problem.

As has been said above - these companies are so shitty, with their jobsworth nazi tactics and unenforceable penalties - they deserve to be ripped off.

Fuck 'em.

 

[pk]

You can buy them for any amount of money...... you just have to have a coin to put into the machine.

5p buys you a PTT.

"Insurance", I calls it.

 

[teuchter]

The permit to travel machines only exist in penalty fare zones, and some companies have started to remove them recently (I guess because it is now possible to buy tickets from machines, so if they provide a ticket machine the permit to travel thing is no longer strictly necessary).

 

[tommers]

OK ready??

Rule No.1 - never ever offer a card for penalty fare payment. Don't give the cunts your I.D.

<snip>

Thanks PK. Next time eh?

 

[Bungle73]

The permit to travel machines only exist in penalty fare zones, and some companies have started to remove them recently (I guess because it is now possible to buy tickets from machines, so if they provide a ticket machine the permit to travel thing is no longer strictly necessary).

Removing them? What if, as I said earlier, the ticket you want isn't available from the ticket machine? For instance if you need a ticket from an originating station other the station you are at; the machines will only sell you a ticket from the station you are at.

 

[teuchter]

If they're being wankers, and you have the time and energy, simply and politely explain to them that you don't wish to argue, that you will be paying only for the fare due and under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you EVER sign a Penalty Fares form.

My understanding was that if you refuse to agree to the penalty fare, they are within their rights to call the police and get you arrested under the railway bye-laws or something like that.

 

[teuchter]

Removing them? What if, as I said earlier, the ticket you want isn't available from the ticket machine? For instance if you need a ticket from an originating station other the station you are at; the machines will only sell you a ticket from the station you are at.

Well, that's a good question. You're right that they don't sell tickets originating elsewhere. This is a problem I've come across when I want to buy a ticket from a travelcard zone boudary to somewhere outside of my travelcard zones; you can't get it from the machine so I'm not sure what you're supposed to do if there is no ticket office.

Maybe the companies that have removed them have also decided that those stations are no longer in penalty fare zones.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

No, but it all adds up, and let's face it, I'll stick my neck out and say that yes, my time is that precious that I shouldn't have to expect to factor in unnecessary waiting times on the chance the station operator isn't performing it's service to an acceptable standard.

Five minutes isn't really an unnecessary waiting time. It's a short queue. One person wants a ticket that takes more than the minimum: you've got your five minutes.

 

[two sheds]

On the next occasion this happened, I took mobile phone photos of the closed ticket office and the queues by the ticket machines and managed to get the penalty rescinded.

You'll be arrested - don't you know that terrorists take photographs of ticket machines so they can plan the best place to plant a bomb to blow them up?

Terrorist!!!

 

[pk]

My understanding was that if you refuse to agree to the penalty fare, they are within their rights to call the police and get you arrested under the railway bye-laws or something like that.

You think the cops are going to give a fuck about some jobsworth?

If you smacked them in the jaw, then yes, maybe, but if you maintain absolute calm and professionalism and explain to them that you will not be entering into the appeals system because of their faulty machines, they're going to be reluctant to make themselves look like timewasting cunts in front of the police.

Try it!

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Getting to the station with 5 minutes to go is hardly enough time to buy a ticket even if the ticket office was open. There could be a long queue or you could get one of those people in front of you who takes ages buying a ticket.

Balls, even in rush hour you don't wait more than a few minutes for tickets at my station unless something's gone wrong.

 

[tommers]

Balls, even in rush hour you don't wait more than a few minutes for tickets at my station unless something's gone wrong.

Hoorah!

 

[pk]

Five minutes isn't really an unnecessary waiting time. It's a short queue. One person wants a ticket that takes more than the minimum: you've got your five minutes.

Bollocks, sorry, I've a train to catch.

My method means no fucking about with "but sir you need to allow time to purchase a ticket" jobsworth whining, my method simply says "shut the fuck up and sell me a ticket, I have neither the time nor the inclination to converse with surplus humans such as yourself on my rail journey".

 

[Bungle73]

Balls, even in rush hour you don't wait more than a few minutes for tickets at my station unless something's gone wrong.

I take it that your local station is out in the middle of nowhere with hardly any passengers then?

Five minutes is not enough time to buy a ticket unless you're the only person, or there only one or two people in front of you, in the queue for the ticket office. Even then you could get stuck behind some cunt buying some obscure ticket or renewing their pass or something who takes ages!

 

[pk]

I take it that your local station is out in the middle of nowhere with hardly any passengers then?

Five minutes is not enough time to buy a ticket unless you're the only person, or there only one or two people in front of you in the queue for the ticket office. Even then you could get stuck behind some cunt buying some obscure ticket or renewing their pass or something who takes ages!

Precisely.

It's yet more arbitrary rules they impose, in order to scam money from your pocket.

Trust me, my method is tried and tested, and although these days I mostly buy a ticket because I need the receipts for work in the years I've been using it must have saved tens of thousands.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Balls, even in rush hour you don't wait more than a few minutes for tickets at my station unless something's gone wrong.

At some stations and at some times this may be true. At others and at other times it isn't. Either way, given that serving one customer with a query can easily take a couple of minutes, anybody who think five minutes an inordinate amount of time strikes me as being over-optimistic.

And if your time's that precious, buy in advance.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I take it that your local station is out in the middle of nowhere with hardly any passengers then?

Five minutes is not enough time to buy a ticket unless you're the only person, or there only one or two people in front of you, in the queue for the ticket office. Even then you could get stuck behind some cunt buying some obscure ticket or renewing their pass or something who takes ages!

You take it wrong, major commuter hub to London. It does vary a fair bit, as Donna says.

Before the automatic ticket machines it was worse.