Why have the left in this country never prioritised social activities etc?

[butchersapron]

How is that contrary to the OP though?

 

[belboid]

the OP implies it is because of the failure to priorities social activities that the left has fallen away, whereas it is nothing to do with what the left have or havent done, and even if the left decided to make such things a priority it would make no odds.

 

[Fruitloop]

It's not entirely contrary, it's true.

The thing is, in an environment where a local community is less and less part of the lived experience of most city-dwellers, and society is organised around the pursuit of conspicious leisure of a specific and limited kind, what is to be gained from political organising around social forms that are on the wane anyway? He who pisseth into the wind wetteth his shirt, after all.

 

[butchersapron]

It's not entirely contrary, it's true.

The thing is, in an environment where a local community is less and less part of the lived experience of most city-dwellers, and society is organised around the pursuit of conspicious leisure of a specific and limited kind, what is to be gained from political organising around social forms that are on the wane anyway? He who pisseth into the wind wetteth his shirt, after all.

What you say in the post before and what b says is true - capital seeks to expand into every corner and makes what were once socially produced and socially met needs part of their market - down to our very community and social life - we all know it tries to commoditise them, but at the same time they always have to face our resistance, our production of new commons, why there doesn't seem to be much production of this type in the way of pub/clubs (ona large scale anyway) is worth pondering form the other side - let's take capitals attacks for granted.

 

[butchersapron]

the OP implies it is because of the failure to priorities social activities that the left has fallen away, whereas it is nothing to do with what the left have or havent done, and even if the left decided to make such things a priority it would make no odds.

I don't see it as saying that myself, more as pointing out a possibly now lost opportunity. That's a one-sided reading of the last 50 years anyway isn't it?

 

[tbaldwin]

FFS! Everyone but you is a fucking liberal, baldwin.

And you're the man who reckons consumerism makes folk happy,

1 er no,but the dominant view on Urban is a broadly Liberal one.

2 Where have i said that?

 

[nino_savatte]

1 er no,but the dominant view on Urban is a broadly Liberal one.

2 Where have i said that?

It's your insult of choice.

 

[tbaldwin]

It's your insult of choice.

Try to answer the question.

 

[Fruitloop]

What you say in the post before and what b says is true - capital seeks to expand into every corner and makes what were once socially produced and socially met needs part of their market - down to our very community and social life - we all know it tries to commoditise them, but at the same time they always have to face our resistance, our production of new commons, why there doesn't seem to be much production of this type in the way of pub/clubs (ona large scale anyway) is worth pondering form the other side - let's take capitals attacks for granted.

The state tends to squash any recreational activity that it doesn't agree with, the CJB-led hammering of the rave movement being a case in point. Also, I think that the left is in the main very suspicious of activities it sees as being non-serious - not without reason since the media would pick up on any excuse to ridicule and belittle it.

 

[nino_savatte]

Try to answer the question.

Oh, the irony! When I suggested that we needed to address the issue of consumerism on another thread, you said (or words to the effect) "you can't prevent people from being happy".

So you don't think that consumerism has made certain sections of the w/c more interested in consuming meaningless commodities because it appears to level eliminate the class divide? In other words, because they (the rich) have these objects and so do 'we', that we are now all 'equal'? It's a false consciousness.

 

[tbaldwin]

Oh, the irony! When I suggested that we needed to address the issue of consumerism on another thread, you said (or words to the effect) "you can't prevent people from being happy".

So you don't think that consumerism has made certain sections of the w/c more interested in consuming meaningless commodities because it appears to level eliminate the class divide? In other words, because they (the rich) have these objects and so do 'we', that we are now all 'equal'? It's a false consciousness.

"words to that effect" erm why dont you find the quote and read what i actually said in response to another post?

 

[belboid]

I don't see it as saying that myself, more as pointing out a possibly now lost opportunity. That's a one-sided reading of the last 50 years anyway isn't it?

mebbe, but the OP seems to put the blame for it on the left, rather than on the state for taking over those functions.comes to something of a chicken and egg situation - will the left revive if they get into social activities, or would it take a left revival for such activities to become popular again.

 

[nino_savatte]

"words to that effect" erm why dont you find the quote and read what i actually said in response to another post?

Ah, you demand proof but fail to deliver yourself. You said it and if you want it, go and get it.

 

[butchersapron]

The state tends to squash any recreational activity that it doesn't agree with, the CJB-led hammering of the rave movement being a case in point. Also, I think that the left is in the main very suspicious of activities it sees as being non-serious - not without reason since the media would pick up on any excuse to ridicule and belittle it.

It tends to try to. But Surely that's not the end of the story is it?

 

[Prince Rhyus]

The state tends to squash any recreational activity that it doesn't agree with, the CJB-led hammering of the rave movement being a case in point. Also, I think that the left is in the main very suspicious of activities it sees as being non-serious - not without reason since the media would pick up on any excuse to ridicule and belittle it.

"If all the people in the world camped out in your back garden
Would you write and tell the king or would you grab a tent and join them"

Watching a documentary about the "rave" movement of the early 1990s the police said that there was very little public order trouble. (The loud music, drugs and turning up on some farmers land was a different issue obviously.)

"Ravers" at my secondary school however were evil school bullies, some of whom were racist towards me, homophobic towards some of my mates and were just generally nasty people who I still hope that life has gone onto screw them over big time. I'm not very forgiving to those ravers who ruined my teenage years. (After 9/11 I considered them "terrorists" because they "terrorised" everyone making them "terrorists", a threat to national security and...etc...etc...but no one ordered a crusade against school bullies.)

 

[ViolentPanda]

1 er no,but the dominant view on Urban is a broadly Liberal one.

And people should just take your word for that, should they?

 

[brasicritique]

Oh, the irony! When I suggested that we needed to address the issue of consumerism on another thread, you said (or words to the effect) "you can't prevent people from being happy".

So you don't think that consumerism has made certain sections of the w/c more interested in consuming meaningless commodities because it appears to level eliminate the class divide? In other words, because they (the rich) have these objects and so do 'we', that we are now all 'equal'? It's a false consciousness.

Your lack of insight into this issue merely represents your own ignorance on a great many issues.

Not only are the wc/uc ignored by the left they are not allowed to consume or have any type of happyness unless it is regulated by comrade nino

The only false consciousness on show on these boards is your own

 

[nino_savatte]

Your lack of insight into this issue merely represents your own ignorance on a great many issues.

Not only are the wc/uc ignored by the left they are not allowed to consume or have any type of happyness unless it is regulated by comrade nino

The only false consciousness on show on these boards is your own

Ah, another brasicattack classic post. Do you ever read anyone's posts properly or just those of the folk with whom you share some common antipathy? I have shown some considerable insight, whereas you have simply leapt in with both feet.

It's a good thing that you're not in power, just imagine the widespread ignorance that would stalk this country.

So your take on consumerism is what? Let's have something that borders on thoughtfulness for change...oh, you don't think.

 

[brasicritique]

Ah, another brasicattack classic post. Do you ever read anyone's posts properly or just those of the folk with whom you share some common antipathy? I have shown some considerable insight, whereas you have simply leapt in with both feet.

It's a good thing that you're not in power, just imagine the widespread ignorance that would stalk this country.

So your take on consumerism is what? Let's have something that borders on thoughtfulness for change...oh, you don't think.

How apt that you use the phase 'stalk this country' still using the Jurassic socialists book of political quotations i see

All of my posts are classic nino. Still jealousy is to be expected....

My take on consumerism is that you are a consumer and owing to the fact that you appear to be of mc descent implies you do and indeed will consume more than most wc/uc people durin gyour life time - you need to take your carbon footprint out of your mouth.

Still one rule for the comrades another rule for everyone else.

 

[nino_savatte]

How apt that you use the phase 'stalk this country' still using the Jurassic socialists book of political quotations i see

All of my posts are classic nino. Still jealousy is to be expected....

My take on consumerism is that you are a consumer and owing to the fact that you appear to be of mc descent implies you do and indeed will consume more than most wc/uc people durin gyour life time - you need to take your carbon footprint out of your mouth.

Still one rule for the comrades another rule for everyone else.

Another skip full of clichés in another halfwitted screed from brasicattack.

No, most of your posts are wide of the mark and usually involve arselicking your pals or attacking those whom you feel 'threaten' you.

Your last paragraph is, well, incomprehensible gobbledegook from someone who is trying to be clever with words. Pity it's a pile of shite.

 

[durruti02]

Social activities is not just running bars though is it?

Events like Martin Smith's talks with film and music on Billie Hiliday, Frank Sinatra etc followed by jazz, or Courtney Pine etc playing the Socialist Worker benefit gig...Love Music Hate Racism have hosted hundreds of recent gigs against racism and the BNP (including several in my town).

The Mean Fiddler on 9 July features live jazz to the film The Battle of Algiers as well aas Jerry Dammers DJing a selection of 'radical black music'. Plenty of cultural events not to mention drinking at the SWP Marxism event...

Tom Morello's recent gig against the war.

Most left groups have regular fund raising socials usually involving drinking loads don't they?

i aprreciate LMHR and similar groups do a lot of cultural things .. which is good ... but thats not quite what i am on about .. i am talking about centres/bases in w/c areas with regular activity ..

 

[durruti02]

Ghettoisation?

People ending up prioritising running the place over doing actual political work?

Just a few thoughts, eg the left pretty much dominates the Ultra scene at FC St Pauli, and run partys and stuff, but as a result many left wingers were away at the Magdeburg game last saturday when imo they should have been protesting at the G8.

yes ghettoisation is an issue .. but i think that is related to how it is done ..

 

[brasicritique]

its a fairly obvious paragraph.

You are a consumer.

I might rightly or wrongly think that you are a mc consumer.

That being the case you will consume more than those you accuse of 'comfort consumerism', ie wc/uc people

Your carbon footprint will be bigger.

Your foot is in your mouth.

Hence carbon footprint in your mouth

Arse licking friends ...feeling threatend.....

I have to admit you do make me laugh sometimes, rarely but sometimes

 

[durruti02]

I think historically all leftist struggles were firmly based in communities and with social centres and activites as a natural part and parcel of that.

The fracturing of communities/unions/social fabric etc., post 60's has had the, to be expected, effect of fracturing leftist social groups too. Communities today are much more mixed, so having that monolithic unity is much harder.

Thats not to say that people aren't doing a fair amount of socialising on the left - in fact, probably more socialising than action!

What would your ideal version of social activity look like Durruti?

For me I guess it would be about engaging as many people in your local community across age, ethnicity, and probably even class under a common banner - but again, we live in a time when concrete political ideologies are pretty much dead - it is proving very hard for the left to find a common united banner to call its own. Respect, I think, is a perfect example of an attempt to create one... oh dear.

Social activities are not necessarily about the quality of events that you put on, but about a common vision and commradery within the group - finding two people who can agree on anything these days is hard enough.

Social centres are great, but Im not sure if squatted centres really connect with the greater public - that is the essential step in creating a strong, modern, community based social network: getting everyone involved.

Its not impossible: pre-Iraq invasion you had an issue that brought out so many different people out of the woodwork and into halls and meetings - this group is exactly the one that needs some unifying and socialising - hard to imagine how to get them all to come into a room together without the threat of imminent slaughter of civilians.

What activity/s might unite such a diverse group?

good post .. my vision? i think fairly low key .. i like d this what you wrote .. "... it would be about engaging as many people in your local community across age, ethnicity, and probably even class under a common banner" ... i think very broad though .. we are in a period where i think basic communication is critical .. peole are that disillusioned and cynical

so i think esssentially clubs like red rose in london ) or this place in liverpool that sounds interesting) ... that are very very very open .. possibly like the old CIU places but a bit more political and less male!!

 

[durruti02]

the OP has it arse over tit. The 'left' did organise a lot of social activities decades ago. From cycling clubs to the Workers Educational Association. What happened to them? the state took over most of their functions (eg education for all) and increasing atomisation broke down existing communities and the social activities that took place therein. there are still a few remaining examples of such clubs, but they're few and far between, and wont be magicked back by wishful thinking and the odd book launch or whatever. Where they do seem to be partly successful as new ventures is in helping to organise those excluded from 'mainstream' society, teaching migrants 'without recourse to public funds' english etc.

why back to front?? how so .. i am totally aware of what we used to have .. that was my point .. we have lost it .. with as i see little struggle

yes i accept the state took over most ( my dad was of the opinion that that was the end of the w/c politically ) .. but the left did not see where this and other structural changes would lead .. based on as i see that current UK trotskyism doesn't prioritise/understand community

 

[durruti02]

Exactamundo. As capitalism further atomizes and alienates its subjects from any authentic community, the state steps in to take up the slack.

so surelyt then it must be a priority for the left to deal with this??

 

[durruti02]

It's not entirely contrary, it's true.

The thing is, in an environment where a local community is less and less part of the lived experience of most city-dwellers, and society is organised around the pursuit of conspicious leisure of a specific and limited kind, what is to be gained from political organising around social forms that are on the wane anyway? He who pisseth into the wind wetteth his shirt, after all.

well that is interesting .. i have heard other people argue against local/geographical community struggle and say that communities of interest are the future .. maybe so .. i find it hard to agree though .. if there is ever to be real change we will have to take power on both interest, work AND geographical levels

i would like to see a good argument that community is finished ..

( p.s. i am not saying this is exactly what you were saying fruitloop)

 

[belboid]

why back to front?? how so .. i am totally aware of what we used to have .. that was my point .. we have lost it .. with as i see little struggle

yes i accept the state took over most ( my dad was of the opinion that that was the end of the w/c politically ) .. but the left did not see where this and other structural changes would lead .. based on as i see that current UK trotskyism doesn't prioritise/understand community

see later post

 

[durruti02]

the OP implies it is because of the failure to priorities social activities that the left has fallen away, whereas it is nothing to do with what the left have or havent done, and even if the left decided to make such things a priority it would make no odds.

Belboid .. it is not important but i did not say that and do not think that ( clearly welfare state and neo liberlaism have a much much more profound affect)

.. as torres says .. i think it could have done more though ..

re your later post .. yes it is chicken and egg .. but/and yes i would argue that if we do the right things it will have an affect ..

 

[ska invita]

good post .. my vision? i think fairly low key .. i like d this what you wrote .. "... it would be about engaging as many people in your local community across age, ethnicity, and probably even class under a common banner" ... i think very broad though .. we are in a period where i think basic communication is critical .. peole are that disillusioned and cynical

so i think esssentially clubs like red rose in london ) or this place in liverpool that sounds interesting) ... that are very very very open .. possibly like the old CIU places but a bit more political and less male!!

...can you elaborate on this a little: I dont know the red rose, and CIU is the workings men club thing right? I wonder what goes on in working mens clubs today apart from boozing? Any broadly political activity? Judging from the CIU site there's a lot of pub quizzes!

what kind of an agenda/program could venues undertake that would be broad enough to make everyone feel welcome?

There is no reason why a thread like this couldnt be used to sketch out a template of what an ideal social centre would look like/ involve, and who knows, it may just inspire someone to get one together as a result.

Problems:

• -provide a program that appeals to the cross section of a modern community (across age, ethnicity, and probably even class under a common banner)
• -a common banner that avoids any direct affiliation to a political group (especially SWP!)
• -a program that would welcome involvement from political groups, perhaps on a rota basis, allowing groups to set out there stall on occassion
• - needs an organising group of people - again, musnt be affiliated with one political group
• - a venue that is cheap/ free
• - a venue that doesnt automaticaly include/exclude particular groups
• - genuine socialising activity - not just heavy politics stuff

...its a start

Going back to the CIU/woking mens clubs, there are still a huge amount of venues that operate under the name - I know a couple near me:
Here's a pretty definitive national list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C&IU#C.26IU_Clubs_in_England

I wonder if there isn't a real opportunity here, to put on fortnightly/monthly events of a more political nature, combined with the clubs entertainment facilities. You already have a working class base to build from: the only problem would be to befriend the commitees that I presume run them and also put on events that would bring in people who might otherwise feel intimidated/unwelcome at such venues.

-Oh, I guess another issue would be that to get in dont you have to be a card carrying member?

I wonder what effect the smoking ban will have on such venues?

Also, I stumbeled across this in the urban vault:
http://www.urban75.org/music/working-mens-club.html
Looks like bethnal green WMC are up for a laugh at least.