Why does society not trust women?

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by Cloo, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. kabbes

    kabbes "A top 400 poster"

    Explicit attitudes are tested by asking people what they think.
    Implicit attitudes are tested by using an Implicit Association Test.
    Generally speaking, implicit attitudes tend to be better predictors of behaviour than explicit attitudes. And the two can be widely divergent. We think we know our own minds but in many cases we really don't.
     
    hipipol and 8ball like this.
  2. campanula

    campanula plant a seed

    Many sperm and one ova. The undeniable ability to bear a child, to carry on a dynasty, to construct a bloodline or lineage or even just to raise productive units of labour does tend to leave men a bit redundant...and compensating accordingly...eroding matriarchal power by militaristic shenanigans and capitalistic ownership.
    Obviously, just a random thought off the top of my head and not some deeply researched analysis but biology often resists social construction and politics (inasmuch as every child knows who their mother is - while fathers, less so).
     
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  3. cheesethief

    cheesethief Well-Known Member

    Whilst issues of women being the only gender who can get pregnant & give birth are hard to overcome, one would hope in a truly equal future the assumption that raising children is predominantly a female task will fade away. It's that kind of assumption that damages women's careers, whilst impeding men who'd like to spend more time raising their kids from doing so.
     
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  4. trabuquera

    trabuquera Modesty Bag

    Because as women's voices are raised (and more often now than previously) to point out injustice or unfairness, it fritzes male synapses, because most men (even patriarchal men - and in fact most humans generally) want to believe they themselves are fair and just. Those women must be lying because things surely can't be as bad as they say, right? A partner can't have just hit her 'for no reason'. She can't have been harassed and tormented just because some guys wanted some fun. It can't be true that life is massively unfair and that no formula has yet been found to keep humanity reproducing while providing justice for all. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy: women are inferior because their word can't be trusted and their word can't be trusted because they are inferior.

    For most of human history women were simply described as "like children" - ie you can be fond of them, even love them or fight for them, yet not rate them as fully equal rational humans who need to be listened to. And that's where they weren't or aren't considered as "like slaves", ie chattel in human form, to be traded at will.

    Also the "weapons of the weak" thing - if women aren't or weren't encouraged to fight their corner physically, verbal resistance was all, which meant cancelling their words out became more vital than ever. (I think Mary Beard's most latest book is a lot about this, about women's words and how they are silenced).
     
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  5. Gromit

    Gromit International Man of Misery

    Women might be the only ones who can bear children but men are the only ones who can provide sperm. Whether it comes in a test tube or not it still came from a man you dozey twat.

    Women can have one pregnancy at a time. Men can impregnate hundreds of women in the same time. Thousands if we're talking test tubes.

    So fuck your women give life bollocks used for centuries to somehow one up men. It takes two to tango as much as you might want to deny it.
     
  6. cheesethief

    cheesethief Well-Known Member

    You seem to be easily riled, are you prone to insecurity?
     
  7. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430 Banned

    Ironically, this is exactly the kind of position Jordan Peterson would take. And that isn't a good thing.

    That said, the thread title appears as a question for which there is no evidence likely to be available. Pointless, except in order to allow some posturing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  8. izz

    izz Madam, to you. :-P.

    no, that is simply incorrect.
     
  9. Sea Star

    Sea Star peace and love; peace and love

    What about sperm banks? :p
     
  10. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    They're making quite rapid progress with in vitro gestation, so in the future they'll be able to artificially inseminate eggs (robots can do the work), grow embryo in a box, extract gonads, get gametes from gonads, mature gametes, artificially inseminate again, rinse, repeat, etc.

    No need for all of those extraneous delivery and incubation systems attached to the gonads that go about despoiling the environment and arguing on the internet.

    Efficiency. Finally.
     
    Sea Star likes this.
  11. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430 Banned

    What about the children?
     
  12. Sea Star

    Sea Star peace and love; peace and love

    Too much whataboutery!
     
  13. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430 Banned

    This thread is based on that very point. You could map the development in advance.
     
  14. Gromit

    Gromit International Man of Misery

    Still stocked by men. They don't grow the sperm on sperm trees.
     
  15. campanula

    campanula plant a seed

    I have no idea who Jordan Peterson is...but using equivalent statements made by someone else, as being 'not a good thing', with no further explication, strikes me as rather flimsy analysis, Beats. Nonetheless, Gromit's frothing notwithstanding, it occurs to me that the politics of reproduction and rearing offer some definite insights regarding issues of control and exercise of power...without resorting to value judgments or exclusion (or wishing to 'one up men'.
    Regarding Gromit's assessment ('it takes two to tango'): if we are attempting some sort of equivalence here, I am hard pressed to see any equality of effort in the pre-birth arena at least...but it might have been unwise (on my part) to emphasise the ova rather than the enormity of the process...

    It's true though - this thread is a bit focus-free and vague...a definite invitation to ramble on
     
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  16. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430 Banned

    Peterson is the current 'go to guy' in popular discourse deemed to be against - well at this point it becomes hard to discern anything beyond mere reactionary politics. He is, however, often attempting to situate his position in a concrete biological apparatus and determinism - beyond and outside anything 'socially constructed' (a phrase likely to send him in to orbit).

    I find Peterson's particular structuring of the post-modern especially problematic - he has a particular animus against Foucault (often described as a Marxist / Neo-Marxist) - which lacks any grounding in a reading of primary material.

    He's a populist. And that is scary and not a good thing.
     
  17. Cloo

    Cloo Surfeit of lampreys

    Well, I often say, we are only just getting over millennia of women being chattel (hence obsession with women's looks when he main value was marriagability)

    mojo pixy - sorry you had such an awful experience of family courts, which I understand is pretty common and I also think is a problem of a patriarchal society (ie, it's not proof, as some claim, that 'men get oppressed by women, too'). In a society where woman is the default caregiver, the one area she is trusted with is childrearing/housekeeping and from that we get men sidelined in custody proceedings, sometimes when they are a more suitable caregiver than the mother. The mild end of this is those adverts or comedy shows where men are shown as unable to cope with looking after the kids or managing the house. The downer of this for women is again, just as men aren't trusted with the domestic stuff, we're still not trusted with power at work.

    Mr White Middle Aged Guy becomes CEO of a business, and it is generally assumed he's competent, even if he's a total ass, because our idea of a CEO is a White Middle Aged Guy, and it's so conditioned that you will often get women or black people admitting that they felt uncertain of the skills of respectively a new female or black boss. Commonly, when a woman becomes CEO, and she has to *prove* she's competent, she is scrutinised for slip-ups etc.

    Yeah campanula this thread is vague... it was stuff swirling around in my head when I couldn't sleep last night. I'm probably going to bed quite soon, on fact!
     
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  18. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Why do you write like you have no understanding of the things that you're writing about?
     
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  19. stethoscope

    stethoscope Well-Known Member

    Another post that manages to say not much whilst giving the pretence of being really clever :cool:
     
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  20. campanula

    campanula plant a seed

    I can't say I have any problem with concrete biological apparatus...but it is ridiculous to separate biology from how the body is perceived, objectified, exploited.
    Um, well yes, I do myself (retreats from P&P in cowardly consternation before forced to reveal that my 1992 readings of Foucault...or pretty much anyone else, tbh, has long vanished from my brain).
     
  21. campanula

    campanula plant a seed

    [QUOTE="Cloo, post: 15460460, member: 14"

    Yeah campanula this thread is vague... it was stuff swirling around in my head when I couldn't sleep last night. I'm probably going to bed quite soon, on fact![/QUOTE]

    Well, there is a lot of stuff to cover, tbf, Cloo.
     
    Cloo likes this.
  22. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430 Banned

    If you want to argue and present a position for Foucault as a Neo-Marxist or Marxist then go ahead, open a new thread.
     
  23. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430 Banned

    Oh look, another post by you saying nothing.
     
  24. The39thStep

    The39thStep Well-Known Member

    How do we explain the growth of gender studies courses at universities in a patriarchal society ?
     
    TopCat likes this.
  25. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430 Banned

    A sense of humour?

    :D
     
  26. VeganMight

    VeganMight Banned Banned

    Beats & Pieces wears (or, at least, has worn) round glasses in a bid to appear intelligent. This is a known fact.
     
  27. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    Round glasses rarely make one look more intelligent.
     
  28. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430 Banned

    Oh really? Prove it, provide evidence.

    Good luck with that.

    :facepalm:
     
  29. VeganMight

    VeganMight Banned Banned

    You fucking do though. Otherwise, you'd have just denied it. Haystacks - Eviscerate him. Or something. But don't think I've forgot you're supposed to be murdering me butchersapron ..Ya big old fanny. And shagger of birds with fat ankles.
     
  30. VeganMight

    VeganMight Banned Banned

    You're not wrong there 'stacks - And, tangentially, it always used to annoy my mam that, apparently, women only started working in the 1960's - Working class women were working since jobs existed - And what existed before then? That's what you're gettin at there, eh 'stacks? (eh, stacks, Haystacks, geddit lol?) Nah, but you're right though, people (male or female) weren't always just yoked to a single role..
     

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