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Why does socialism cause shortages?

capitalism gives shortages whilst discarding excess as waste. Wrap your head around that.
Citizen66 can you expand on that.

The kind of industrial capitalism I know of emphasises an abhorrence of excess or waste, attempting to make only what is needed, only when it is needed, and to minimise stock, waste, rework and lead times. Of course that is the objective in the ideal world, but manufacturing companies are striving for it.
 
I probably am missing the point then.

Are you saying that shortages in the DDR were the result of deliberate government policy rather than systemic issues?

I'm saying that the DDR deliberately suppressed and minimised demand, in order to focus their resources on exporting. Given the extent to which West Germany also supported their economy (and not just with trade agreements and cash), the systemic issues you're talking about were minimal.

There aren't that many examples of socialist countries to give us examples of what can happen in planned economies, if you had to pick a best example, in terms of socialism working well, which would you chose?

Planned economies and command economies aren't the same thing. The DDR was a command economy, as was Cuba.
Britain between '46 and '79, on the other hand, was a planned economy - a mixture of command and capitalist economic principles.
 
Citizen66 can you expand on that.

The kind of industrial capitalism I know of emphasises an abhorrence of excess or waste, attempting to make only what is needed, only when it is needed, and to minimise stock, waste, rework and lead times. Of course that is the objective in the ideal world, but manufacturing companies are striving for it.

Hmmm, I think you're confusing what some manufacturers do (i.e. having economically-viable and rewarding supply chains and waste policies) with "industrial capitalism" per se. Industrial capitalism is what has left us with slag and spoil heaps, polluted water, mountains of broken electronic goods in "3rd world" countries. Industrial capitalism is about production, and capitalism itself pays no heed to clearing up the messes left by production. Private benefits and socialised costs.
 
The answer to the question in the OP inherently gets you into "what is socialism" territory.

In theory:

First thing to point out is how capitalism avoids the question of scarcity. If you've got an item where supply is scarce under capitalism, then theoretically you can just keep upping the price until only a minority can afford it, at which point the shortage at issue appears to be consumers' money rather than the product.

If however your society takes it upon themselves to provide every member of society with particular products or tries to establish set maximum prices for that product that everyone can afford on a government-set salary (as state socialist societies tend to do), then whenever you experience a limit in supply then you produce a shortage.

Imagine Britain decided tomorrow that it was everyone's birthright to eat Kobe beef and decided it would be provided free of charge on the National Food Service. Without having done anything to production, you've instantly produced rationing, queues and shortages. The shortage could be alleviated instantaneously by reintroducing a free market in kobe beef, and allowing scarcity to be "solved" by market prices. People are still going without kobe beef, but now the scarcity is organised by wealth, not universal. All without doing anything to production.

In practice:

To massively over-generalise, productivity and resource distribution in many industries in state socialist countries has often been historically inefficient because when basic subsistence is provided as of right by the state, management lack sufficient means to discipline or motivate their workforce. Sometimes they correct this by turning to violence or offering incentives.

In Venezuela:

Much of the country's capital is still owned and run by private capitalists who are reluctant to produce goods which are unprofitable because of government price regulations.
 
The answer to the question in the OP inherently gets you into "what is socialism" territory.

In theory:

First thing to point out is how capitalism avoids the question of scarcity. If you've got an item where supply is scarce under capitalism, then theoretically you can just keep upping the price until only a minority can afford it, at which point the shortage at issue appears to be consumers' money rather than the product.

If however your society takes it upon themselves to provide every member of society with particular products or tries to establish set maximum prices for that product that everyone can afford on a government-set salary (as state socialist societies tend to do), then whenever you experience a limit in supply then you produce a shortage.

Imagine Britain decided tomorrow that it was everyone's birthright to eat Kobe beef and decided it would be provided free of charge on the National Food Service. Without having done anything to production, you've instantly produced rationing, queues and shortages. The shortage could be alleviated instantaneously by reintroducing a free market in kobe beef, and allowing scarcity to be "solved" by market prices. People are still going without kobe beef, but now the scarcity is organised by wealth, not universal. All without doing anything to production.

In practice:

To massively over-generalise, productivity and resource distribution in many industries in state socialist countries has often been historically inefficient because when basic subsistence is provided as of right by the state, management lack sufficient means to discipline or motivate their workforce. Sometimes they correct this by turning to violence or offering incentives.

In Venezuela:

Much of the country's capital is still owned and run by private capitalists who are reluctant to produce goods which are unprofitable because of government price regulations.
Good answer, cheers.

The kobe beef example was a good one.
 
.. Planned economies and command economies aren't the same thing. The DDR was a command economy, as was Cuba.
Britain between '46 and '79, on the other hand, was a planned economy - a mixture of command and capitalist economic principles.

Ok, but the OP asked about "socialism"... which could have either command or planned economies.
 
Citizen66 can you expand on that.

The kind of industrial capitalism I know of emphasises an abhorrence of excess or waste, attempting to make only what is needed, only when it is needed, and to minimise stock, waste, rework and lead times. Of course that is the objective in the ideal world, but manufacturing companies are striving for it.

Well think of housing shortages. As with anything in capitalism making something scarce increases its value so it's actually in the interests of the landlord class not to have enough to go round. So we simultaneously have homelessness and properties standing empty. The same applies to food. We easily have enough to go round yet see many children living below the poverty line whilst Tesco discards its surplus into the skip.
 
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Well think of housing shortages. As with anything in capitalism making something scarce increases its value so it's actually in the interests of the landlord class not to have enough to go round. So we simultaneously have homelessness and also properties standing empty. The same applies to food. We easily have enough to go round whilst also having children below the poverty line and Tesco throwing food in the skip.

Housing is complex iirc, not just straight supply and demand. IIRC there are limitations like planning regulations on where and how many new houses can be built, then there are subsidies of some kind for, or not for, housebuilders, which affects how many houses they are motivated to buy, then there are property taxes in different bands which affect buyer behaviour.

Food is more straightforward there is vast choice in the UK but fresh food has a shelf life. If the supermarkets can't predict demand accurately (and with such choice how could they, they probably do about as well as they can) and sell everything, they can't keep it on sale past its date and have to throw it. I think throwing a certain amount is a function of such variety though it must push up overall prices.

On custom goods for a moment. In Japan there are companies which only make to order, a crash helmet company for example takes detailed orders for custom painted helmets then finishes them and supplies. They don't make anything they don't have an order for, but delivery times are fast. Then there are car companies which sell cars customised for their specific customer, colour wheels, interior trim, ICE etc .. the car becomes your car while it is still on the production line their emphasis is make it right first time, minimise stock, rework, and scrap.
 
Housing is complex iirc, not just straight supply and demand. IIRC there are limitations like planning regulations on where and how many new houses can be built, then there are subsidies of some kind for, or not for, housebuilders, which affects how many houses they are motivated to buy, then there are property taxes in different bands which affect buyer behaviour.

But under socialism the empty properties would be allocated to those without homes. Under capitalism they are kept empty until they can be bought or turn a profit through rent.

Food is more straightforward there is vast choice in the UK but fresh food has a shelf life. If the supermarkets can't predict demand accurately (and with such choice how could they, they probably do about as well as they can) and sell everything, they can't keep it on sale past its date and have to throw it. I think throwing a certain amount is a function of such variety though it must push up overall prices.

But you acknowledge that it's scandalous that good food ends up in the bin whilst children go hungry? That's the shortages capitalism produces. Even when there are no shortages.
 
But under socialism the empty properties would be allocated to those without homes. Under capitalism they are kept empty until they can be bought or turn a profit through rent.
I think it is less about socialism / capitalism and more about the less than ideal policies of our successive governments.

But you acknowledge that it's scandalous that good food ends up in the bin whilst children go hungry? That's the shortages capitalism produces. Even when there are no shortages.

Surely supermarkets throwing food away is evidence of a surplus rather than of a shortage.

A shortage is when there is a lack of something even though people might have been able to afford it if it was there. The fact that there are people using food banks in the UK at the moment is because of a failure of the economy to employ people and or the benefits system to look after those who are not employed for one reason or another.

There is a shortage in the UK, a shortage of decent work.
 
Surely supermarkets throwing food away is evidence of a surplus rather than of a shortage.

A shortage is when there is a lack of something even though people might have been able to afford it if it was there. The fact that there are people using food banks in the UK at the moment is because of a failure of the economy to employ people and or the benefits system to look after those who are not employed for one reason or another.

What does it matter if the net result (people going hungry) is the same?

There is a shortage in the UK, a shortage of decent work.

Another situation created entirely by Capitalism.
 
What does it matter if the net result (people going hungry) is the same?
Because it isn't a shortage! You are using the wrong word.
That people are going hungry is certainly bad, but there is no food shortage in the UK.

Another situation created entirely by Capitalism.

It is more complicated I think than being able to simply lay the blame at the foot of the economic system. The UK has a significant state sector, we are a mixed economy. Some would disagree but I believe there could be a form of full employment in the UK, we would have to pay our way on world markets, especially with the erosion of trade barriers which we are seeing as a result of globalisation.

I find the change of emphasis towards services and away from manufacturing to have been a historic mistake and I think the financial sector has failed to provide funding for UK manufacturing industry while we have also become associated with lower quality products compared to Japan and Germany. It could take generations to change this status but there is no inherent reason why Britain could not become a high quality producer for example of cars to rival Japan and Germany if the national will was there. And there are still plenty of jobs in such industries despite automation. In fact with automation the jobs tend to be higher quality and more highly paid.
 
There is a shortage in the UK, a shortage of decent work.
Another situation created entirely by Capitalism.

Just to come back on this again. Capitalism does not say that people have to be unemployed for 2 years, it is possible there can be unemployment but people are on average only unemployed for short periods. This type of unemployment is much less harmful.

When there are a lot of people unemployed for longer periods it is often because of skills mismatches, they have X and the market wants Y. Some of that can be blamed at the door of education and or adult education, within the purview of government policy rather than wholly the fault of capitalism.
 
Just to come back on this again. Capitalism does not say that people have to be unemployed for 2 years, it is possible there can be unemployment but people are on average only unemployed for short periods. This type of unemployment is much less harmful.

When there are a lot of people unemployed for longer periods it is often because of skills mismatches, they have X and the market wants Y. Some of that can be blamed at the door of education and or adult education, within the purview of government policy rather than wholly the fault of capitalism.

Do you know what structural unemployment is?
 
In the Soviet Union there were food shortages. In Cuba they lack pretty much everything. Venezuela is now struggling to provide toilet roll for its citizens.

Why is it that the more socialist* a country becomes, the more shortages we see?

*Please don't make this an x wasn't socialist thread.
Well I think the most "socialist" government around at the moment is Uruguay and I think the only thing they are short of at the moment is weed.

I also think that a 'toilet roll shortage" in Venezuela is bullshit and not even propaganda. I think if you ask most people who have been there, they will tell you that the plumbing systems don't allow for the use of toilet paper and that next to the toilet is a hose that one uses to wash after using the toilet, one then drys oneself with a little paper and puts it in the bin not down the toilet.

470158_13091307550015156530_STD.jpg
 
Yes, and do you know how many different descriptions there are for the term "full employment"?

It isn't in the interests of capital to have full employment. A pool of available workers helps place downward pressure on wages and fear over job security helps erode working conditions. Yet you say the blame doesn't lie with Capitalism. :confused:
 
It's a failure in distribution. But that applies to socialist countries too and you're happy to call those shortages.
There is no food shortage in the UK. That some people can't afford to buy food is a different issue.
There is no shortage of cars in the UK, ditto ....
 
Well I think the most "socialist" government around at the moment is Uruguay and I think the only thing they are short of at the moment is weed.

I also think that a 'toilet roll shortage" in Venezuela is bullshit and not even propaganda. I think if you ask most people who have been there, they will tell you that the plumbing systems don't allow for the use of toilet paper and that next to the toilet is a hose that one uses to wash after using the toilet, one then drys oneself with a little paper and puts it in the bin not down the toilet.

470158_13091307550015156530_STD.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-24185342

Plenty of stuff in there which would be easy to prove/disprove if you think it's bullshit.
 
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It isn't in the interests of capital to have full employment. A pool of available workers helps place downward pressure on wages and fear over job security helps erode working conditions. Yet you say the blame doesn't lie with Capitalism. :confused:
So you don't know the various definitions of full employment.
Full employment does not necessarily mean that all people are in jobs all the time. It can mean that there is a pool of workers not in roles but that none of them are unemployed for very long. There is a good wiki page on it : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment
 
An aside.

We had the big competition already, between the capitalist USA and socialist USSR. They went head to head in the post WWII world during the cold war. Each spent untold billions on their militaries funded by their economies and the result? The result was that the Socialist USSR backed down first, it was their economy that failed to sustain their military spending first. Now that is not to say that the model the USA follows is angelic because it certainly isn't. American capitalism is ruthless and cruel, you only have to look at their health system to see that, but whatever else they are or did, they did arguably win the cold war.
 
There is no food shortage in the UK. That some people can't afford to buy food is a different issue.

How is it any fucking different to the working class why they can't feed their kids? Whether it because they can't afford food in a country with plenty because of structural unemployment or whether it's because capitalism won't allow imports into socialist nations? Your problem is you think nationally rather than globally.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-24185342

Plenty of stuff in there which would be easy to prove/disprove if you think its bullshit.
Well I've been there many times and have many friends that live there and I have never not been able to buy toilet paper and none of my friends have said they have.

I'm currently in Boa Vista and about 200Ks from Venezuela and there were 1000's of Venezuelans here for Carnival and I didn't hear any of them mention this.

I'll ask around but I think it bullshit, because of the way toilets are used there I can't see how there could be a shortage.
 
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