Why do you like philosophy?

[goldenecitrone]

There was one exception. She was pretty hot, in a hippy way, which was alright with me, and she was almost as good as me at the arguing. But what do you know: she married the fucking professor and became a lawyer.

The one that got away. Fucking professors are the worst kind.

 

[Jonti]

It's true that intentionality is a necessary feature of both consciousness (consciousness is always of something, if only itself) and information (information is always about something as well).

But that's not itself enough to establish circularity, no. The claim is actually falsifiable.

Information is something that is physically measurable; it may be that it turns out that information cannot be created at all, for example (in which case the conjecture would be plain wrong).

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The one that got away. Fucking professors are the worst kind.

She was actually sort of out of my league. She was a more serious hippie than me, and serious hippies fuck up, not down.

 

[Santino]

Information is something that is physically measurable

What nonsense.

 

[Jonti]

Just your bald assertion means nothing; it conveys only information about you, not any information about the assertion under discussion.

The information content of any structure is defined as the minimum number of instructions needed to specify it. For example, a random pattern of letters has a low information content because it requires very few instructions: 1) Select a letter of the English alphabet and write it down, and 2) Do it again. A highly ordered but repetitive pattern likewise has low information content. Wrapping paper with "Merry Christmas" printed all over in ornate gold letters is highly ordered, but it can be specified with very few instructions: 1) Write "M-e-r-r-y C-h-r-i-s-t-m-a-s," and 2) Do it again.

The Wikipedia piece on information may be a good place to start, if you want to understand what is meant by "information".

 

[gorski]

Chicks? In Philosophy?!? Sheeeet, I grew up in a wrong country...

But then again, it is more exciting than rock'n'roll, yeah!!!!

You wanna live dangerously? Study Philosophy!!!

[Jonti's gonna get far in Ph.
























































LIKE HELL!!!!]

 

[Meltingpot]

Christopher Rowe (a writer/philosopher who worked on the London Underground) once characterised philosophy as a kind of zoom lens on life - it gives you the ability to move back and see things from a distance, or zoom in and see detail..

I think we need to do that, and that's why philosophy is important.

 

[kavenism]

Well I used to think that studying Philosophy and Psychology would lead to a more authentically happy life, not one based on fantasy and self deception. But having been reading it for some time now I realise that my original intention was also a self deceit and in fact Philosophy has made me fairly miserable. However I am convinced that I am at least authentically miserable and If I keep on studying I may eventually find a way back to my original intention. My favourite quote from a Philosopher is by Wittgenstein: “Nothing is as difficult as not deceiving yourself”

It’s a labour of love and in that sense is a form of faith in knowledge and understanding.

 

[Aldebaran]

My brain likes it. I never asked my brain if I like it.

salaam.

 

[samk]

My guess: by way of information (whatever that is). Consciousness arises when information is created.

A weather system is chaotic...does it create information? In which case what kind of consciousness does it create?


if a weather system doesn't count, I'm sure depending on your definition of information lots of fairly simple nonbrainlike systems count as creating information, and the question still stands...

 

[Jonti]

It's the fuzziness in the notion of information that gives the wiggle room to the almost (but not quite) circular definition. Not that I think the idea is impossible exactly to delineate; but we're groping for an understanding of what it is, in much the same way that natural science groped towards an exact understanding of the notion of energy. Steam engines made our notion of energy precise. Computers are now sharpening our appreciation of information.

To give the kind of clear example you're asking for, I'd say evolution creates information. I don't think it's sensible to suppose that that the genotype of every type of life, throughout all of space and time, is implicit in the initial conditions of the universe. Not have I ever met a biologist who believes such a thing.

But I don't hold that evolution as such is conscious. Even allowing that the creation of a single bit of information is accompanied by the smallest possible spark of "I AMness", a phenomenisca of consciousness, there still remains to integrate these into a sensorium. That demands the right sort of complex, organised body. Evolution itself has no such body; and nor does a hurricane.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's the fuzziness in the notion of information that gives the wiggle room to the almost (but not quite) circular definition. Not that I think the idea is impossible exactly to delineate; but we're groping for an understanding of what it is, in much the same way that natural science groped towards an exact understanding of the notion of energy. Steam engines made our notion of energy precise. Computers are now sharpening our appreciation of information.

To give the kind of clear example you're asking for, I'd say evolution creates information. I don't think it's sensible to suppose that that the genotype of every type of life, throughout all of space and time, is implicit in the initial conditions of the universe. Not have I ever met a biologist who believes such a thing.

But I don't hold that evolution as such is conscious. Even allowing that the creation of a single bit of information is accompanied by the smallest possible spark of "I AMness", a phenomenisca of consciousness, there still remains to integrate these into a sensorium. That demands the right sort of complex, organised body. Evolution itself has no such body; and nor does a hurricane.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phenomenisca

 

[fela fan]

Christopher Rowe (a writer/philosopher who worked on the London Underground) once characterised philosophy as a kind of zoom lens on life - it gives you the ability to move back and see things from a distance, or zoom in and see detail..

I think we need to do that, and that's why philosophy is important.

Yeah, that metaphor sounds right.

It also indicates neatly the limitation that philosophy has on understanding life. Only the eye behind the lens can see things. Philosophy is subjective, according to its speaker/writer. It is looking outwards.

There is a universal life out there that philosophy cannot uncover. It cannot because language is the block.

 

[fela fan]

Well I used to think that studying Philosophy and Psychology would lead to a more authentically happy life, not one based on fantasy and self deception. But having been reading it for some time now I realise that my original intention was also a self deceit and in fact Philosophy has made me fairly miserable. However I am convinced that I am at least authentically miserable and If I keep on studying I may eventually find a way back to my original intention.

I think you have to get into philosophy and then let it burn itself out. Then your misery will drop too. The trouble with philosophy is that you can never get to the end of it. It can never provide the answers that searchers use it to get. It is incomplete, and always will be because it relies upon language. This is probably the cause of your misery, the fact that it's not supplying what you expected it to. And it never will be able to. You know you're getting close to dropping it when you start saying to yourself 'the more i know the less i know', and 'i know nothing'. Peace and inner harmony is just round the corner!

Again: politics >> philosophy >> spirituality

Philosophy is a stepping stone.

 

[Jonti]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phenomenisca

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=phenomenisca

Yep, it's a neologism. Coined by Bruce MacLennan, I think, and discussed by David Chalmers ...

I think MacLennan's idea of "protophenomena" (or "phenomenisca") as basic elements of consciousness is particularly interesting, and promises considerable rewards if it can be further developed. For a precise theory, I think we will need an account of (a) precisely when a protophenomenon is associated with a physical process, (b) what sort of protophenomena will be associated, depending on the characteristics of the physical process, and (c) the principles by which protophenomena combine into a unified conscious experience.
source

 

[Dillinger4]

I think you have to get into philosophy and then let it burn itself out. Then your misery will drop too. The trouble with philosophy is that you can never get to the end of it. It can never provide the answers that searchers use it to get. It is incomplete, and always will be because it relies upon language. This is probably the cause of your misery, the fact that it's not supplying what you expected it to. And it never will be able to. You know you're getting close to dropping it when you start saying to yourself 'the more i know the less i know', and 'i know nothing'. Peace and inner harmony is just round the corner!

Again: politics >> philosophy >> spirituality

Philosophy is a stepping stone.

*yawn*

 

[Ann Tigonie]

I like philosophy because I'm interested in ideas and how they shape the world in which we live.

 

[kavenism]

I think you have to get into philosophy and then let it burn itself out. Then your misery will drop too. The trouble with philosophy is that you can never get to the end of it. It can never provide the answers that searchers use it to get. It is incomplete, and always will be because it relies upon language. This is probably the cause of your misery, the fact that it's not supplying what you expected it to. And it never will be able to. You know you're getting close to dropping it when you start saying to yourself 'the more i know the less i know', and 'i know nothing'. Peace and inner harmony is just round the corner!

Again: politics >> philosophy >> spirituality

Philosophy is a stepping stone.

I think there's a fair amount of truth in that.

 

[fela fan]

I think there's a fair amount of truth in that.

As my favourite 'writer' says, the only truth is what we experience for ourselves. Everything else cannot be considered truth.

And that's why i feel philosophy is only a second-rate dimension in life. But a vitally necessary one at that though.

 

[Jonti]

physical, mental and sexual health, relationships, adult topics, spiritual stuff etc thisway ------->

 

[fela fan]

physical, mental and sexual health, relationships, adult topics, spiritual stuff etc thisway ------->

No, i don't think so. Spiritual stuff is not thataway. It is the natural growth from philosophy, and therefore totally belongs here! For those interested in philosophy i feel that to get out of philosophy what its seekers want, there needs to be the progression into the spiritual realm. So it is innately linked to philosophy.

 

[Jonti]

Spirituality is about having a healthy relationship with oneself and the rest of creation. Philsosophy may be able to make criticisms of the various claims for spirituality made by, say, 12-step programmers or whatever. But it's not itself spiritual.

I agree there may well be people who study philosophy hoping it will lead them to a better relationship with the themselves, the world and/or other people. Maybe that works for them, but that does not itself mean that's the purpose of the subject, anymore than it's the purpose of psychology or biology.

So I'd say the Urban classification is spot-on -- spirituality is a health/relationships sort of subject, and not philosophy as such.

 

[gorski]

Philosophy not spiritual?

Blimey, first time I hear I am a labourer, as in similar to a bricklayer...

 

[fela fan]

Spirituality is about having a healthy relationship with oneself and the rest of creation. Philsosophy may be able to make criticisms of the various claims for spirituality made by, say, 12-step programmers or whatever. But it's not itself spiritual.

I agree there may well be people who study philosophy hoping it will lead them to a better relationship with the themselves, the world and/or other people. Maybe that works for them, but that does not itself mean that's the purpose of the subject, anymore than it's the purpose of psychology or biology.

So I'd say the Urban classification is spot-on -- spirituality is a health/relationships sort of subject, and not philosophy as such.

What is the purpose of philosophy then mate?

And whatever the purposes, and whatever their individual make-ups, i cannot see how philosophy taken to the nth degree cannot convert into spirituality. Once the limitations of philosophy are recognised, then the inevitable move into spirituality takes place. I think that most if not all people who become interested in philosophy and therefore start asking lots of questions in order to find answers, will at some stage become disappointed at how philosophy remains grounded in the theoretical dimension.

If they are to get the answers all their questions were looking for, the move into spirituality is a condition.

I therefore remain myself convinced of the strong link between the two.

I can easily see however your argument for spirituality belonging in the other forum, but taking into account the context of urban, i don't think this can realistically happen. The kind of debate that spiritual matters will engender is more suited to those in this forum, than that forum.

 

[Jonti]

I'm not sure philosophy has "a purpose" -- it's useful, or enjoyed for lots of different reasons. But in so far as it does have "a purpose" that would be to do with being able to recognise faulty reasoning and advance clear and rigourous arguments.

 

[Santino]

I agree there may well be people who study philosophy hoping it will lead them to a better relationship with the themselves, the world and/or other people. Maybe that works for them, but that does not itself mean that's the purpose of the subject, anymore than it's the purpose of psychology or biology.

I'm not sure philosophy has "a purpose" -- it's useful, or enjoyed for lots of different reasons. But in so far as it does have "a purpose" that would be to do with being able to recognise faulty reasoning and advance clear and rigourous arguments.

^These.

If you insist on thinking that philosophy must lead to sprituality (whatever that means over and above 'something that makes me feel like I'm doing something worthwhile and not just eating and fucking until I die') then you have misunderstood something.

 

[butchersapron]

It's part of a millenia old narrative that places ideas/spirituality in a hierachical relationship with everything else, based around the idea of there being some higher hidden truth-force that eveything else is an emanation (and therefore a lesser version) of. It's truly stomach-churning to read it in 2008.

 

[Santino]

It's part of a millenia old narrative that places ideas/spirituality in a hierachical relationship with everything else, based around the idea of there being some higher hidden truth-force that eveything else is an emanation (and therefore a lesser version) of. It's truly stomach-churning to read it in 2008.

It all went wrong with Socrates, the bastard. Self-administered execution with hemlock was too good for him.

 

[kyser_soze]

It's part of a millenia old narrative that places ideas/spirituality in a hierachical relationship with everything else, based around the idea of there being some higher hidden truth-force that eveything else is an emanation (and therefore a lesser version) of. It's truly stomach-churning to read it in 2008.

Bang fucking on. This post has cheered me up...I might be less mean to people this afternoon...

 

[gorski]

So, you too bought into it?

Just like Butchers who keeps banging on his own little hierarchy... and especially the dominance of his ideas... Well, not really his ideas but HIM personally... but you get the drift...